Upgrade of my chisels

[tibi]

Gentlemen,

I currently have 8 different sizes of big box store bench chisels (of two similar brands) and they share similar issues. They have bellied backs that would take at least 1-2 hours of lapping to remove per chisel, their handles are not aligned to the blade, so it is difficult to pare square and they always twist in the mortice. Edges do not last very long too. I did not have time yet to lap the backs flat, so no big time investment was made into those chisels.

I have bought additional two chisels from Narex for a need of that size in a project (the standard lower-end line of Narex that was available physically in another hardware store), and I have found that I like them substantially better than those big box store chisels. The backs are hollowed, instead of bellied, and the handles are much more comfortable.

This got me thinking, what if I ditched all those chisels and bought just 3 middle-tier bench chisels and 2 dedicated mortice chisels. I will have fewer chisels to maintain and I would be able to keep them in better condition.


My idea is to buy 3 Narex Richter chisels (6 mm, 10 mm and 25 mm - although they are sold as imperial, so 1/4 ,3/8 and 1 inch). And then two Narex or MHG mortice chisels 8mm and 12 mm. I can clean the bottom of the blind mortice with 6 and 10 mm Richter chisels. Will I be missing something if I buy those chisels? I know that I can buy additional sizes later.



Can someone tell me if it is worth buying Narex Richter compared to Narex Wood line Plus? Thank you.

vs

 

[Ttrees]

Some cranked ones are more comfortable for fine paring, whilst non cranked ones better for heavy paring or striking.
Bellied chisels are less likely to dive into the grain, especially so with chopping,
so these might be reasons to suggest they all might have a place, if you've got flat ones too.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Have you a lathe? If so abrasive paper stuck to a disc of MDF will flatten them quickly.

 

[tibi]

Have you a lathe? If so abrasive paper stuck to a disc of MDF will flatten them quickly.

No, unfortunately no, so I have to rely on the elbow grease.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I would suggest that you drop Matthew at Workshop Heaven an e-mail and ask him about the relative merits of the Narex range. I seem to recall that he has helped them with their product development.

 

[Jacob]

You don't need to flatten "bellied backs" it's just another completely pointless crazy-sharpening ritual.
"bellied" and "backs" seem to be ritualistic crazy-sharpening turns of phrase.
"Face" = flat side, "back" = bevel side.

I wasn't too impressed by the one Narex chisel I've owned - a 1" parer. Heavier and cruder than the trad Sheffield equivalent.

All modern so-called "mortice" chisels are pale imitations of the trad oval bolster and not as good for morticing if you expect to do it very often.
You mention new chisels with "hollow" faces. This seems to be normal with all brands of chisel and makes them very easy to sharpen at first, but slowly gets lost with use and sharpening.
Either way the need for a perfectly flat face is mythical.

 

[Adam W.]

I doubt he's got access to traditional Sheffield made stuff living on the mainland.

 

[tibi]

I doubt he's got access to traditional Sheffield made stuff living on the mainland.

That is very difficult for me. I buy from E-bay only if I have to, because shipping is always at least 20 GBP and I always have to pay VAT on the top of the regular price (from Ebay) even when buying from a private seller.

 

[Jarno]

Also on mainland here, regularly buy on eBay UK, yes, it definitely has become less interesting since Brexit, but still for things like planes it makes economical sense. For chisels, not so much, IMHO. I did buy a pair of paring chisels, because they are somewhat hard to get when new, or very expensive.

Recently bought a set of three of the Narex dovetail chisels, for dovetails, obviously, but as someone mentioned above, I do think they are heavy. My main set of chisels are the Stanley re-issue 750 socket chisels, and I like them very much. I think I bought a set of 8 of them at a discount, with the leather roll (which i never use).

I also have a few chisels from MHG, set of 10mm skew chisels, and a big mortise chisel, those are perfectly adequate as well (well, I do have an issue properly sharpening the skews freehand, can't seem to get the hang of it).

But Dictum or Dieter Schmid have great tools, I suppose, just start with a few tools when on a budget, you really only NEED 3 chisels or so

Edit: should have read your question and not the last reply
I am not partial to having grooves and stuff on handles, so I would go for the richter ones, but they are both fine, and better than what you now have, so if those Richter chisels are a lot more expensive, go for the other ones.
The MHG mortise chisels are great, but they are huge, are you chopping deep mortises in oak? (bought mine for a mortise in hornbeam which was also a little bit of a chore)

 

[thetyreman]

the narex richter are the best chisels I've used so far, so I can highly recommend them, I bought the 5 piece set but get the 7 piece set if you can, the edge on them lasts a lot longer than ordinary steel because of the cryo treatment and it still feels a lot like O1 steel, easy to sharpen, handles are great too, not too fat and the bevels are very fine on the edges which makes them great for dovetailing and fine work.

Also my first set was the oridinary narex cabinetmakers chisels, I like everything about them except the handles and ferrules, the handles are far too bulky and the ferrules end up cracking, I'd like to re-handle the set at some point, steel on them is ok but not comparable to the richter.

 

[hlvd]

Gentlemen,

I currently have 8 different sizes of big box store bench chisels (of two similar brands) and they share similar issues. They have bellied backs that would take at least 1-2 hours of lapping to remove per chisel, their handles are not aligned to the blade, so it is difficult to pare square and they always twist in the mortice. Edges do not last very long too. I did not have time yet to lap the backs flat, so no big time investment was made into those chisels.

I have bought additional two chisels from Narex for a need of that size in a project (the standard lower-end line of Narex that was available physically in another hardware store), and I have found that I like them substantially better than those big box store chisels. The backs are hollowed, instead of bellied, and the handles are much more comfortable.

This got me thinking, what if I ditched all those chisels and bought just 3 middle-tier bench chisels and 2 dedicated mortice chisels. I will have fewer chisels to maintain and I would be able to keep them in better condition.


My idea is to buy 3 Narex Richter chisels (6 mm, 10 mm and 25 mm - although they are sold as imperial, so 1/4 ,3/8 and 1 inch). And then two Narex or MHG mortice chisels 8mm and 12 mm. I can clean the bottom of the blind mortice with 6 and 10 mm Richter chisels. Will I be missing something if I buy those chisels? I know that I can buy additional sizes later.



Can someone tell me if it is worth buying Narex Richter compared to Narex Wood line Plus? Thank you.
View attachment 140185vs View attachment 140184

Surely you’ll only maintain the chisels you’ve used, they don’t need to be periodically maintained.

 

[Jacob]

Surely you’ll only maintain the chisels you’ve used, they don’t need to be periodically maintained.

Reminds me of a plane I sharpened for a friend which encountered again when we visited them in France several years later. I helped ease a door with it and was surprised at how sharp it was. He explained it hadn't been used since I sharpened it the first time!
The "period" for periodic maintenance can be many years long.
This is well worth bearing in mind when looking at a newly acquired old tool - give it a go first before you do anything - the last person to use it might have left it in good condition. Don't just start frantically "restoring" it.

 

[D_W]

narex regular chisels are austempered. That keeps he cost down but it limits the potential of the steel, especially in regard to hardness (which equates to crispness in use).

The richters are probably done with regular process if they're cryo treated - quench, temper separately, and cryogenic treatment between the two just to bump up hardness.

They are almost certainly just some kind of chrome vanadium drill rod somewhere between 0.8 and 1.1% carbon steel (not going to be hard to sharpen - chrome vanadium steels are generally less alloyed steel than O1 and A2, not more).

There was one test online that I can think of that compared the two - the regular narex chisels clicked 58 hardness and the richters clicked a little over 63. If you're doing bench woodworking and the cost difference isn't a big deal, I would buy the richters without question. Chrome vanadium steel (which is "plain steel", not the junky attribute that people usually assume with it) at higher hardness is going to sharpen easier and have better edge strength than something that's austempered.

if you were prying locks with both chisels, the austempered chisel would bend a lot more before it broke. I don't know where that's useful in woodworking at the cost of the edge.

(the "unicorn" trick can make up for the lack of hardness, but the regular narex chisels will never be quite as sweet and sharp feeling).

 

[tibi]

narex regular chisels are austempered. That keeps he cost down but it limits the potential of the steel, especially in regard to hardness (which equates to crispness in use).

The richters are probably done with regular process if they're cryo treated - quench, temper separately, and cryogenic treatment between the two just to bump up hardness.

They are almost certainly just some kind of chrome vanadium drill rod somewhere between 0.8 and 1.1% carbon steel (not going to be hard to sharpen - chrome vanadium steels are generally less alloyed steel than O1 and A2, not more).

There was one test online that I can think of that compared the two - the regular narex chisels clicked 58 hardness and the richters clicked a little over 63. If you're doing bench woodworking and the cost difference isn't a big deal, I would buy the richters without question. Chrome vanadium steel (which is "plain steel", not the junky attribute that people usually assume with it) at higher hardness is going to sharpen easier and have better edge strength than something that's austempered.

if you were prying locks with both chisels, the austempered chisel would bend a lot more before it broke. I don't know where that's useful in woodworking at the cost of the edge.

(the "unicorn" trick can make up for the lack of hardness, but the regular narex chisels will never be quite as sweet and sharp feeling).

Thank you David, we have discussed this earlier, but I was also interested in how they compare to the standard Premium line of Narex chisels, that is why I asked, if Richters are worth paying more. I would like to buy only 1/4, 3/8 and 1 chisels now (1/2 is out of stock) and I will buy others later if needed. At the same price point, there are also Pfeil, MHG, and Two Cherries chisels, I do not know if those brands are any better than Richters.

I do not want to buy a set, as I do not need both 3/4 and 1 chisel and maybe I would not need 5/8 or 1/2 chisel.

 

[Jacob]

I'd think more about the design of the tool rather than the steel. The Narex parer was thicker, heavier and slightly clumsier in use than the trad Sheff alternative. I've got photos of them both somewhere I'll dig them out.
And all modern mortice chisels are pale imitations of the OBM, actually in use, except for the Ray Iles offering I expect, though I haven't had hands on with one.

 

[Adam W.]

I'd get the pfeil ones, they have a lifetime guarantee.

 

[tibi]

I'd think more about the design of the tool rather than the steel. The Narex parer was thicker, heavier and slightly clumsier in use than the trad Sheff alternative. I've got photos of them both somewhere I'll dig them out.
And all modern mortice chisels are pale imitations of the OBM, actually in use, except for the Ray Iles offering I expect, though I haven't had hands on with one.

That is the issue, that all other brands, except Narex, I would buy from Germany. So I cannot personally test them and feel them in my hands. There are two types of mortice chisels now, one type has square sides and one type has tapered. Which one is better? I prefer to have metric mortice chisels, as I work from drawings and it would give me odd numbers to include imperial mortices. For bench chisels, I do not mind imperial sizes, because if I do not make mortices with bench chisels, the exact size is irrelevant.

 

[tibi]

I'd get the pfeil ones, they have a lifetime guarantee.

They have octagonal elm handles. How does elm compare to hornbeam or ash, that is commonly used for handles? They have no metal ring, so I do not know if they can withstand heavier blows (information for David , 60 HRC,CrV steel)

 

[Jacob]

....... There are two types of mortice chisels now, one type has square sides and one type has tapered. Which one is better? .....

There always have been at least two types of mortice chisel:
The sash mortice chisel, most typically about 12mm squarish section and not tapered sides, for smaller mortices such as for glazing bars
The OBM mortice chisel also most commonly 12mm (1/2") wide but with deeply tapered blade and trapezoid section, designed fo 1/2" mortices the same but longer, e.g. for rails.
Then various sizes and shapes from biggest mortice chisel (5/8") down to the smallest (1/8").
Handle material not too important - anything which takes a battering and won't split - beech, ash, hornbeam, are typical.

 

[Adam W.]

They have octagonal elm handles. How does elm compare to hornbeam or ash, that is commonly used for handles? They have no metal ring, so I do not know if they can withstand heavier blows (information for David , 60 HRC,CrV steel)
View attachment 140238

They look like bench chisels. I wouldn't get too hung up about the quality of pfeil steel, it's Swiss and it's good.