Uni Education and student loans

[Matt@]

So our Son 17yrs old is looking at Uni for Sept 2018 start. Admittedly he is passionate about his subject so hopefully this will translate into a proper career and good financial reward.

He would get the full loan amount as we as parents don't officially earn over the level required to contribute nor could we afford to much.

The final amount of loan for his 3 yr course will be circa £55K.

I seem to be the lone voice around him that says is he sure he wants to acumulate so much debt. His lecturers at College tell him to ignore the debt - its kind of the "way you need to do it" and dont pay it off. He will leave Uni with £55K worth of debt which will increase by £1800 a year if he pays nothing off. Thus if he pays £150 a month toward the debt, the amount owing will stay still as he would be just paying the interest :roll:

Add to the above it is my opinion that alot of Unis are now money making ventures that line peoples pockets. Classroom hours are ridiculous. My daughter had about 12 hrs per week tuition onsite at her Uni and thats only in term time. I think the whole thing stinks and I do wonder if a recent article was correct when the writer said Uni fees would be the next mis selling scandal. I mean, how many students know that if they pay £150 a month off their loan they will be paying nothing off the capital and thats with RPI at the level it is now. Uni places seem more accessable, our daughter sailed into hers. Lots of our sons mates have had unconditional offers.

So many students going to Uni to study a history degree then leaving (with massive debt) and not having a clue what to do and ending up in a dull job earning no money.

But when I mention my relative opposition to alot of Uni educuation I feel I'm being regarded as having a chip on my shoulder.

Just wondering what others thought...

PS I do acknowledge there are some very worthwhile courses out there but the list is endless for many of the others.

 

[Myfordman]

If he wants to do it then just go ahead. It is highly unlikely that most students will ever pay off their loan and it will get written off.
An important point is to note that the debt does not appear on his credit history.
But it is not a 3-4 year holiday! he will require to work hard and achieve high attendance rates in order to stand out from the huge crowd of the student population bloated in the last decade or so by the huge increase in the number of places.
I would advise choosing a subject that directly relates to a career. Almost any engineering discipline will be ideal.
Arts courses are primarily training grounds for McDonalds, and Uber unless he is really exceptionally talented AND lucky.

Good Luck!

 

[porker]

Debt for young people really worries me. I agree most universities are money making businesses with the ones I am familiar with (I went to a couple in the late 80's) having expanded beyond all recognition. I also think there needs to be some sort of reality check with how well the courses set the students up for decent job prospects once they have graduated. My own kids are too young to be deciding what they want to do yet, but my niece is looking at the moment at apprenticeships that lead to a degree. She will be working for the company and earning, admittedly not much, but the debt scares her to death as she comes from a single parent family where money has always been tight. She has asked my advice and I told her to look at something where there will be real job prospects at the end of it.

Regarding value for money, I think there will be a growing push back from students funding courses to see whether they get value for money. Some of the courses only appear to be offering a few hours of classroom time a week yet are still charging the full £9k+ course fees.

The reality is that social mobility is a joke and has got worse every year since I was in education irrespective of the colour of government in power at the time. The reality is that we shouldn't be trying to send 50% of kids to university. What about the trades, even in the emerging technologies such as AI and robotics. There will be jobs for skilled hands-on people but I'm not sure where they are going to come from. Nobody seems to want to invest in proper training these days but want to buy in trained people.

There are those who say just take on the debt as you don't need to pay it off until you have a job above a certain threshold but to me the threshold is pretty low and young people have other things to spend their money on such as unaffordable housing and a young family.

I'm just under 50 and feel the young have it tough at the moment. Plenty of people always ready to put them down, but some of the responsibility must be on our generation. I do some work to mentor young people and encourage them into the engineering field (telecoms) so feel like I am somewhat in touch with this generation.

 

[HappyHacker]

Get him to ask of each university:
What percentage drop out in each year?
What percentage get a decent degree (2:1?)?
What percentage get jobs relevant to their degree? They may not know the answer to this one but the better one track their graduates.
What percentage get jobs that require a degree?
Get him to look at the student reviews of the actual course he wants to take and the university.

He must evaluate the above critically, it is easy to say I will not be one of the ones to drop out but if he does so after two years he will have most of the debt and no degree.

I agree that many degrees and universities are a waste of time but many jobs require a degree, irrespective of actual need, due to the laziness of HR departments and the devaluation of degrees.

There are many good apprenticeship schemes, along with many bad ones, that give the advantage of earning while he learns and can significantly increase the chance of a job in the future due to the experience he will have gained.

A good university and a good course can set him up for life, if he makes the right choices, works hard and gets a good degree.

Many degree courses are just job creation schemes for the university management.

While student loans were a good idea the rules keep on changing and the interest rate is now quite high and the administration appears to be rubbish. All may change again depending on the colour of the next government and how much they are prepared to increase our national debt.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I worked with a lady chemistry tutor in a sixth form college, a very clever lady well past normal retirement age who when this subject was broached told me that unless a degree was absolutely necessary for entry to a profession such as medicine, architecture, vetinary medicine etc. she would advise any bright young person not to go to university, but to look for employment in their chosen field with large companies that would train them anyway. I pointed out an article in The Times to a friend of my daughter about blue chip companies taking on people straight from school - I didn't hear anything more about her until recently when my daughter looked up one day and said dad, you remember Abi? She did what they said in that article you showed her - she's nearly finished her ACCA exams with KPMG. I think the kid owes me a nice bottle of plonk.

 

[Losos]

we shouldn't be trying to send 50% of kids to university. What about the trades, even in the emerging technologies such as AI and robotics.

There will be jobs for skilled hands-on people but I'm not sure where they are going to come from. Nobody seems to want to invest in proper training these days but want to buy in trained people.

Plenty of people always ready to put them down, but some of the responsibility must be on our generation. I do some work to mentor young people and encourage them into the engineering field (telecoms) so feel like I am somewhat in touch with this generation.

I am horrified at how pretty much any further education establishment can now call itself a 'unniversity. There are about 450 so called unniversities in the UK now and only 24 of them are 'proper' unniversities. These are known as 'The Russel Group' all the rest are either the lower echelons i.e. 'Red Brick' or worse they are colleges of further education that have been allowed to change their name and to call themselves a unniversity.

You are right trying to send 50% of kids to unni is just plain stupid and results in tens of thousands of youngsters going into the work place with not the slightest idea about how things really work, they don't have the 'hand on' experience which in my opinion is absolutely vital.

So far as employers are concerned, when so much is controlled by the 'bean counters' trying to recruit 'ready trained' staff is an obvious way to go, but it is the WRONG way. Whatever happened to the traditional apprenticeship schemes :?: On leaving school kids should be encouraged to take up an apprenticeship and study at evening classes (or maybe one day a week) and should work in every department of the firm and really learn what is right and wrong and how to do it right and avoid doing it wrong.

I have been known to put down the young on occassions, can you blame me when sitting on a mountain top (installing a radio station) and faced with a so called unniversity graduate who was supposed to be doing the mechanical installation, some fasteners needing a torque wrench, picks up the wrench and looks at it like it was some kind of alien monster. never seen one in his entire life :roll: All his 3 or whatever years in unniversity, enters an engineering career, and doesn't have a clue what a torque wrench is.

Had he done an apprenticeship he would have learned (In the factory) how to bolt down the racks properly, yes he would have to study in his own time, not earn much, get ordered about, and even have the mickey taken, but after 5 years he would be a hell of a lot more use to a team of enginers installing stuff on a mountain top than some one who had only been in classes at some red brick unni and spent most of his time partying and such.

To the OP I say, unless his son is able to get into a Russel Group unniversity, forget it, decide what he wants to do and help him to get a good apprenticeship with a good firm. He won't rack up huge debts and he will likely be earning more than many who graduate with degrees in media studies or some useless subject ending 'ology' :lol:

 

[Phil Pascoe]

My daughter's four friends all graduated a year before her as she changed course, they all got 2.1s in different subjects from Exeter, which is no Mickey Mouse university. I asked her how well they were doing, whether they were working. Yes, she said, they're all working - in shops. My daughter was fortunate, she bowled into a dream job the week she graduated - but I suspect it was as much to do with her having worked since she was fourteen and full time through all her holidays since then as it was to her degree.

 

[Matt@]

interesting comments as always. I am finding that notwithstanding a previous posters experience, there appears alot of pressure from further education ie 6th form and colleges for students to go on to Uni.

I think one of the issues with Uni's nowadays is that they are often one big sales machine. That is to say, you are never quite sure how to get the relevant info from them and there is the suspicion that what they tell you is what you want to hear within the framework of what they are allowed to say. I take on board the list of questions previous poster suggested - what is to stop them massaging the info when they reply?

I do agree that get on the right course at the right Uni and the experience will be a positive one as long as the student comes out with with what their chosen industry wants. It seems a constant moan from various industries that students are coming out with the wrong abilities. TBH its wearing me down a bit. My Son knows what he wants to and is very talented at it. I think there is a fair chance he will pick the wrong Uni course as the right one and the only way I can make sure this doesnt happen is contact people in his chosen industry and get them to tell me as it is so thats what i have in store during the next week!. He's doing Computer 3D animation which is quite encompassing within that industry and includes CGI and much more, most of which goes over my head. Any comments invited about this subject from anyone who has experience in this industry (which like it or not, is huge)

 

[El Barto]

As someone who works in the film/tv commercials industry I can safely say that a degree is a complete waste of time and money. Your son will graduate and if he’s lucky enough to get a job in a post house, it will be as a runner. I don’t mean for that to sound harsh, it’s just the way it is. I could probably count on one hand the amount of people I’ve met in this industry with a relevant degree in the 8 years I’ve been doing it. When I was a runner going between companies I spent a bit of time in post houses and everyone I met who was animating or doing actual post work had been a runner and got moved up. These companies like to train from within, you’re essentially an apprentice there. So my advice to your son would be, make as much stuff as you can, build up a decent reel, apply for entry level jobs at post-houses. If he’s good at animation/cgi and has common sense he’ll get noticed, I can about guarantee that. In the three years he might have spent at uni, he will instead have three years experience under his belt which will be infinitely more valuable.

I dropped out of school at 15 and got a job as a runner next to recent uni graduates, it really didn’t matter. We were all in the same boat. I’d be happy to share some useful info or websites with your son if you/he wants.

 

[DaddyG]

My daughter was told to look at it as a graduate tax not a debt, and unless she earned I think it was about £65k a year from graduation till retirement she would never pay it all off!!!
Scarey but I guess they are all in the same situation.

 

[thetyreman]

It's not for everyone, dropping out was the right thing to do for me, before getting into astronomical debt.

 

[Matt@]

As someone who works in the film/tv commercials industry I can safely say that a degree is a complete waste of time and money. Your son will graduate and if he’s lucky enough to get a job in a post house, it will be as a runner. I don’t mean for that to sound harsh, it’s just the way it is. I could probably count on one hand the amount of people I’ve met in this industry with a relevant degree in the 8 years I’ve been doing it. When I was a runner going between companies I spent a bit of time in post houses and everyone I met who was animating or doing actual post work had been a runner and got moved up. These companies like to train from within, you’re essentially an apprentice there. So my advice to your son would be, make as much stuff as you can, build up a decent reel, apply for entry level jobs at post-houses. If he’s good at animation/cgi and has common sense he’ll get noticed, I can about guarantee that. In the three years he might have spent at uni, he will instead have three years experience under his belt which will be infinitely more valuable.

I dropped out of school at 15 and got a job as a runner next to recent uni graduates, it really didn’t matter. We were all in the same boat. I’d be happy to share some useful info or websites with your son if you/he wants.

el barto, thanks for your insight!

but what he wants to do isnt film/ tv industry as I understand it.

I would be interested in the response from TIGA https://tiga.org/ if I ask them this question (worthless degree) as it is a very definitive statement to make and absolutely, if you re correct I have alot to thank you for.

Interestingly I was chatting to my son about 6 weeks ago and we discussed the very options you have outlined ie getting a job and working up and he seemed quite keen on that idea especially the notion of earning some money straight away and not having the debt which I was supportive of.... that was until he talked with his college who emphatically said Uni was a must. I even got accused of brain washing him by one of his mates in suggesting he didnt do Uni.Personally I side with those that think Uni degrees should be reserved for stuff like medical and other useful things that the UK needs.

There appears to be very good understanding from TIGA which is the games industry trade body set up that students are not being prepped for real work in their industry. I am trying to organise a meeting for our son with one of their board members so we can see whats what. I hear what you say but I would be surprised if they tell me a degree from the right Uni and the right course is a complete waste of time and money especially as their give accreditation to 17 course currently in the UK. If when we meet up, I'll feed back to you and let you know what they say.

really appreciate your comments btw

 

[TFrench]

You're definitely going at it the right way. His mate who accused you of brainwashing him is the one with the problem - even when I left school 13 years ago they were trying to push everybody into higher education - it was like I'd said I wanted to strap wings on and fly to mars when I said I was leaving to do a manual job! My brother works in a uni and the management just see the students as cash cows - his science based course (which leads to a proper medical qualification and near guaranteed job) doesn't attract as many students as business studies which costs much less to run so their funding is always being squeezed.

A friend of mine who works in graphic design was marking student papers while he was still younger than the guys taking the course. If you can get a foot in the door and work your way up that'd the way to go.

 

[Dibs-h]

I worked with a lady chemistry tutor in a sixth form college, a very clever lady well past normal retirement age who when this subject was broached told me that unless a degree was absolutely necessary for entry to a profession such as medicine, architecture, vetinary medicine etc. she would advise any bright young person not to go to university, but to look for employment in their chosen field with large companies that would train them anyway.

That lady is one very astute lady!

And I fully agree with the sentiment - unless a degree is an entry requirement to a career, a complete waste of time & money. Unless the kid is a trust fund type, in which case they have money to burn no doubt. Being able & willing to do a cost to benefit analysis seems to be a dying thing.

But then again the willingness to acquire debt is probably a greater symptom in society, so perhaps the kids are following suit.

Dibs

 

[El Barto]

As someone who works in the film/tv commercials industry I can safely say that a degree is a complete waste of time and money. Your son will graduate and if he’s lucky enough to get a job in a post house, it will be as a runner. I don’t mean for that to sound harsh, it’s just the way it is. I could probably count on one hand the amount of people I’ve met in this industry with a relevant degree in the 8 years I’ve been doing it. When I was a runner going between companies I spent a bit of time in post houses and everyone I met who was animating or doing actual post work had been a runner and got moved up. These companies like to train from within, you’re essentially an apprentice there. So my advice to your son would be, make as much stuff as you can, build up a decent reel, apply for entry level jobs at post-houses. If he’s good at animation/cgi and has common sense he’ll get noticed, I can about guarantee that. In the three years he might have spent at uni, he will instead have three years experience under his belt which will be infinitely more valuable.

I dropped out of school at 15 and got a job as a runner next to recent uni graduates, it really didn’t matter. We were all in the same boat. I’d be happy to share some useful info or websites with your son if you/he wants.

el barto, thanks for your insight!

but what he wants to do isnt film/ tv industry as I understand it.

I would be interested in the response from TIGA https://tiga.org/ if I ask them this question as it is a very definitive statement to make and absolutely, if you re correct I have alot to thank you for.

Interestingly I was chatting to my son about 6 weeks ago and we discussed the very options you have outlined ie getting a job and working up and he seemed quite keen on that idea especially the notion of earning some money straight away and not having the debt which I was supportive of.... that was until he talked with his college who emphatically said Uni was a must. I even got accused of brain washing him by one of his mates in suggesting he didnt do Uni.Personally I side with those that think Uni degrees should be reserved for stuff like medical and other useful things that the UK needs.

There appears to be very good understanding from TIGA which is the games industry trade body set up that students are not being prepped for real work in their industry. I am trying to organise a meeting for our son with one of their board members so we can see whats what. I hear what you say but I would be surprised if they tell me a degree from the right Uni and the right course is a complete waste of time and money especially as their give accreditation to 17 course currently in the UK. If when we meet up, I'll feed back to you and let you know what they say.

really appreciate your comments btw

Ah ok gaming! I get you. I can’t say I know much about that side of animation/cgi but based on what I know about my industry and friends who are in the graphic design/digital industries, which aren’t all that far removed, I’d say they’re probably quite similar. A meeting with someone at tiga sounds really helpful and it might be worth your son reaching out to a load of different gaming companies about work experience. Even if it’s just a week at least it’ll give him a real world idea of what day to day in the office is like and also what he needs to get to that level. That’s what I’d do anyway.

As a side note/edit, I think it’s really awful what the education system is doing to young people at the moment. His college saying uni is a must is shocking. Because it’s not a must. Everyone I know who has gone to university has struggled to get work afterwards, unless they did something very specialised (medicine and the like). My brother graduated with a first in English a couple of years ago, did a masters and graduated with a first again. He then moved to London to stayed on my sofa for six months and in that time all he could get was bar work. His search for a “proper job” was never ending. Same as a friend in graphic design, graduated with a first in graphic design but of course went in at an entry level position along with people who didn’t get a degree in it. It’s all about portfolio/experience.

What I’m saying is that schools and colleges scaring the sh*t out of their students with this insane pressure to get good grades and go to university is appalling. Need to calm down now.

 

[finneyb]

As others have said it depends on the course, if its necessary to enter a profession then there is no choice, otherwise I would think carefully.

I hear a lot about apprenticeships - they seem to be flavour of the month - they are not just trade apprenticeships they are across the board in to administration, marketing etc and go to higher and degree apprenticeships https://www.gov.uk/topic/further-education-skills/ I would certainly be exploring them.

A few years ago we visited an old uni friend - both males are Civil engineers. His wife an English teacher. She asked why did I go to Uni - my answer to get a better job. Her response I know someone else like that! ( her husband). She went to study the subject in depth with a particular Professor. So the reasons to go to Uni are many - personally my only motive remains a better job.

I'd ignore the current teachers - they are looking at their figures to attract the next generation of 6th Formers ie 75% of pupils went to uni from this college etc.

Brian

 

[dzj]

A question I heard the other day was how would university professors themselves fare in
the job market they are allegedly preparing our kids for.
Any similarities with WW gurus is purely coincidental.

 

[Jacob]

Education and training should be freely available to all at all ages.
Think of it as "investment in human capital" or "personal empowerment" or whatever other convenient catch phrase.
UK is falling behind badly on this.
It shouldn't need explaining or justifying - that we need an educated and/or well trained population should be glaringly obvious. You should want your neighbours/friends/family to be competent, empowered, useful.
Breaking down the arbitrary distinction between "university" and other forms of education is a progressive step - education for all rather than a privilege for the few.

 

[Keith 66]

My son is in his final year at Bristol doing electronics & electrical engineering, he has knuckled down & worked hard & i am very proud of him.
There is a demand for electrical engineers so he should do ok.
We were lucky that an endowment policy we had kept running paid out & basically covered his accomadation costs for his time at uni.
Many of his friends have done degrees at what were glorified colleges & walked away with useless bits of paper & massive debt, One was reduced to standing on a roundabout with a dominos pizza board round his neck while builders vans chucked pee bottles at him.

 

[Chris152]

There are about 450 so called unniversities in the UK now and only 24 of them are 'proper' unniversities. These are known as 'The Russel Group' all the rest are either the lower echelons i.e. 'Red Brick' or worse they are colleges of further education that have been allowed to change their name and to call themselves a unniversity.

Take a look at the list of universities in the Russell Group, then take a look at the list of Red Brick universities. You'll see that your comment makes no sense.