Thank you, now I understand. Does the same apply if I want to remove only 5-10 mm? Would the removal of so little material release tension and induce twist?
Thicknessing wood on the bandsaw
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Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. You just have to keep checking.
johnnyb
Established Member
I often find slash sawn will cup badly. quarter sawn much less. its important to source wood as close in thickness as possible. especially with unstable species. (consider the effort that's gone into facing and edging) split 2 inch into half and potentially both can shift. better to buy 1 inch everytime.
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
I was thinking nicer jigs, like say Derek's long grain shooting board or whatever,
Endless uses for home made glu-lam made from nice local hardwood timber, what you might not deem suitable to use solid wood for otherwise.
OTOH, It would be just the stuff for curved skirting boards like in Bradshaw's recent video, an apt example.
Not sure if you're in some public setting, IIRC did I read you mention you're on a second floor where fire would be the risk with those huge capacitors in the VFD's, which I'm guessing is your concern, should others be using the machinery too...
and not for the lack of knowledge of hooking them up, 'coz that would be making a mountain out of a molehill.
i.e you'd spend longer comparing little details on new machines, which ultimately wouldn't matter,
whilst shopping around for the best price, compared to the week it'd take for a joe soap to get fimiliar with them, and know the machines your looking for, will be decent.
Fancy VFD or motor swap isn't unreasonable, and should it have come with a dual voltage motor,
then you could sell it, more likely very quickly it's got 3hp, and you'd get a substantial portion of the cost back, or even keep it for other uses down the road.
That is, if you're making something like big refectory tables from sawn domestic hardwood slabs, stuff what you can't get thinner perhaps, then it would be very optimistic IMO to be doing that stuff on an undersized machine, and perhaps more so if it's seen as waste.
All the best
Tom
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Plywood is great but as you say not really suited to hand tools.
I feel like a lot of the advice here is coming from people who are thinking about this stuff with a power tool mindset. Honestly I think what you plan to do works fine and isn’t quiet as crazy as this this thread would suggest.
Ripping wood with hand tools is hard work and having tried a few options I eventually bought a very small hobby bandsaw. Within a few months I was confident it was a useful tool for me using hand tools mainly (and lots of hand tool type sources online suggest reasons they are useful). I’ve then come the same conclusion you seem to be exploring which is can a decent sized bandsaw be useful while using hand tools. The answer is clearly yes. I have zero interest in getting a P/T as frankly I can do what they do with hand planes and I’m happy to do it.
Sounds like you’re open to having a P/T in the future so I guess one question is do you want the bandsaw for other reasons than thicknessing because if not it’s maybe more sensible to go for the P/T first as that’s what it’s good at.
johnnyb
Established Member
a decent circular saw bench would do this much more consistently than a bandsaw I reckon. is it bandsaws feel safer( this I get) or the extra depth?
Ideally, I would like to work with hand tools only, as there is minimum noise and dust involved, like Israel Martin. But he is doing it full-time (I do not know if he has enough highly paid orders to earn a decent salary for working a month on a single item to sustain a family or his wife is earning more and he can afford dry spells or he is single). But as my time in the workshop is limited (max. 2 hours during the week , usually 07 AM - 09 AM, when noise is a concern) and some extra hours during the weekned. I do not mind hard work, but I do not want to build a project for a year.
I made this sawbench without any power tools from rough sawn boards and it took me approximately two months working on and off. It is a small scale project
However, I did not clock the hours, so I do not know exactly how much time I spent on it.
In a few weeks, I will be starting building a 750x1150 mm dining table entirely by hand. I would like to clock every operation I did on a table and the dimensions of the board that was processed.
Ripping a 32 mm board, 1,2 m - 4 minutes, 23 seconds.
Planing reference face of 75x596 mm board - 8 min, 42 seconds.
Planing reference edge of 75x596 mm board - 3 min, 12 seconds.
Sawing the opposite edge of 75x596 mm board - 1 min, 48 seconds.
Thicknessing of 75x596 mm board - removal of avg. 7 mm - 12 min, 6 seconds
If I manage to create such an hours log, I will soon start to see patterns in speed and I could evaluate further projects based on the data.
If I spend total 30 hours on a project and it will take me 8 hours to dimension wood by hand tools only and 22 hours for the joinery, finishing, etc. I will come to the conclusion that I do not need any machines at the moment. Because saving 8 hours out of 30 is not a big deal for me.
If the situation is reversed, i.e. I will spend 22 hours dimensioning wood and I will do joinery in 8 hours, then it is a big deal and I should look at the machines.
Finally, it will show me if I need more the band saw or the thickness planer, based on how much time did I spent on sawing/planing.
I am selling some second-hand items, which once sold, will provide me with spare money for the bandsaw. They can sell at any time, tomorrow or in a half a year. So I have no clue when I will have the money for the bandsaw. If I have enough time, I will do this clocking experiment and see my own data.
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I would like to have a bandsaw because a decent bandsaw is much quieter and I often work in hours when a lot of noise is inappropriate to neighbors and also it is safer for me.
ColinDeVelen
Established Member
As a compromise, and I know this is rather off topic, but I do remember seeing a YT video where an old guy had set up a treadle attachment using a bicycle gear and chain to a bandsaw. Very little noise if you go that route, and you get variable speed, and the exercise of a hand tool.
I have a bandsaw, and I have used it in the past for resawing, and it's alright.
I have a bandsaw, and I have used it in the past for resawing, and it's alright.
thikone
Established Member
I started with small bandsaw (Record Power BS250) and hand planes. Recently I got a room in the cellar to rent and therefore bought a bigger Felder FB-510 bandsaw and Hammer A3-41 planer/thicknesser. Of course, chips extractor also takes space and quite a lot actually (AL-KO Power Unit 120). Hand tools I do in dedicated smallest room in our apartment (like 2.3x4.3 m) where I also have heavy workbench and a benchtop drill press and a mortiser on a movable table.
What I wanted to try is carbide sawblade, as per Derek it leaves better surface and doesn't make random deeper groves. Should require then less work with hand planes. But it also has a bigger kerf, I think.
So, what are your thoughts on preferring 41 in retrospect?
So, with correct fuses (type C) you can get it to work with higher rated machines if you don't cut at maximum depth and limit the actual load a bit. I would say don't be afraid of slightly exceeding your 230 V and 16 A in maximum ratings.
And since I got a track saw I can also cut very precise with it. Then I just clean the edges with a hand plane if it is visible. And I also use it with rip disk to precut timber (I usually buy 50-52 mm thick rough sawn boards).
It is good enough. I usually did not plane outer surface between bandsaw cuts, like Derek does in that article, as that seems to be quicker then for narrow pieces. Now with thicknesser I usually clean the surface before next bandsaw cut. Bandsaw leaves uneven groves from the blade. In some places it is more even but like every few cm there is a deeper grove (probably has something to do with welded place on the blade that sticks out on one side more). Hand planing such surface creates a dust at first rather than shavings. And if at some moment the wood piece will wonder away from the fence on the bandsaw, you might get easily like 1 mm deviation from the line. So, slightly more than 1 mm extra is needed. Sometimes I had to redo pieces when it gets out of control somehow. Ripping shorter pieces is better in this regard as it is less likely to happen on a shorter piece and it is easier to control a shorter piece. After planing both surfaces and checking thickness on four corners I do shoot the long edges once again, as they can get out of square in the process or get dirty or dented by chips or saw dust.
What I wanted to try is carbide sawblade, as per Derek it leaves better surface and doesn't make random deeper groves. Should require then less work with hand planes. But it also has a bigger kerf, I think.
I would suggest A3-31 then as it is basically the same footprint but much better machine. And also with helical head that is called SilentPower - it really makes it twice less noisy (-10 db or so). I use my A3-41 without hearing protection, it makes more noise at startup for a second than during operation. I also make friends with all the neighbors so that they can just tell me if I am too loud, instead of complaining to a police or something.
Well, I did exactly that and went for A3-41, so that I don't have to bother with upgrade in my life, I thought. In actual use I haven't needed 41 cm so far (but I might in the feature, ofc). But now that I think about it, given what space I have, it might be that my work space would be better organized and more productive if I would chose slightly smaller machines, like A3-31 and maybe 14 inch bandsaw. Of course, I have everything on wheels but still... Two big machines would probably fit alright. But since they also need chips extractor it then becomes 3 machines. And I chose AL-KO Power Unit 120 because it has fine filters (something like HEPA) and also rather quiet (71 dB) but unfortunately it also takes more space.
So, what are your thoughts on preferring 41 in retrospect?
You need proper fuses for induction motors, that have C-type curve, this is also mentioned in Felder/Hammer manuals. Those do not trip if current becomes 10 times more for a short time, which is needed during startup of motors. I didn't measure it myself, but from Felder video A3-31 (with helical head) running idle consumed about 4 A and up to 16 A at maximum cut depth. So, taking a little cut will require less power. Dust extraction probably runs at more or less constant load and consumes maybe about 6 A or less for 1500 W unit that I have. And it has to start before or after the other machine not to stress fuses too much. I did notice that with 6 m not-so-flexible hose it is a bit lacking the air volume (maybe?) when thicknessing, as sometimes chips get imprinted into surface at 1 mm cut depth...
So, with correct fuses (type C) you can get it to work with higher rated machines if you don't cut at maximum depth and limit the actual load a bit. I would say don't be afraid of slightly exceeding your 230 V and 16 A in maximum ratings.
Yes, VFD are very nice indeed. For one, there is a dust extractor from Harvey Woodworking (GYRO AIR G-700) that actually has it embedded for speed control. You could do the same with any dust collector. Optimal would be the one that has a motor that is 3 phases 400 V and can be wired in triangle schema, as 3 phase motors are more efficient and have more torque or whatever. You could even tune the noise to performance ration with it and with little cut it can easily be like half as noisy (-10 dB or so). In fact I plan to experiment with mine AL-KO Power Unit 120 as it seems to be more audible outside the room than Hammer A3. And I want to keep it to needed minimum in our multiapartment building.
That's nice! I also want to do something similar for Felder FB-510. Though, I was thinking on 3d printing some flexible multipart hose with cut out for blade change. So far I didn't really use FB-510, sadly, as BS250 was still enough and more familiar for everything.
My workshop in the cellar is slightly smaller, maybe 3.4x3.6 m, but sure I can work with plywood. For example, when I buy plywood I can ask it to be cut in several places. Costs a little extra but not much considering how much plywood costs nowadays. Also, I can precut it myself using battery powered hand held circular saw, like 12V with 85 mm disk can cut up to 25 mm pretty easy. Works even outside, like before attaching it to the roof of my car.
And since I got a track saw I can also cut very precise with it. Then I just clean the edges with a hand plane if it is visible. And I also use it with rip disk to precut timber (I usually buy 50-52 mm thick rough sawn boards).
Something for me to learn here. Yes, it does cup like every second time. So I tend to glue two thinner pieces together to compensate, when is possible... Or I can try this technique and make more chips for the dust collector.
It is somewhat suited to hand tools in my experience. I said I precut plywood with hand held circular saw roughly because final dimensions I get after shooting edges with my beloved #7 hand plane. And if plywood at least 10 mm thick (or if it is small enough) I also plane the surfaces of it. This depends on whether it flexes under hand plane or not. Thin plywood (like 6 mm drawer bottom) I would more likely sand with orbital sander as it flexes a lot and difficult to plane (I have to put much downwards pressure while planing or it would skip and leave uneven surface).
I have or had similar times for such projects where dimensioning all parts can really take a month to do. Since we have three kids and I also have other hobbies and duties... And that was with the bandsaw help already. This is the reason why I decided to get the planer/thicknesser once I had a place to put it in. And now I also have Domino. Together that makes it possible to do even two small utilitarian projects per month, as not all home projects require quality in construction or materials worthy of traditional joinery (like cats toilet or potatoes storage).
It is quieter, but still loud as a vacuum cleaner can be. And during cutting you get some more noise from the blade. But definitely quieter than a planer/thicknesser with a dust collector, even with induction motors (universal motors in benchtop thicknessers are much worse, of course).
Thank you very much, thikone, for a lot of insight. Luckily,I already have C type fuse for my workshop circuit, so it should not be a problem. A3-31 is way over my budget. Even A3-26 is over my budget, but If I manage to work with hand planes for some time, I might eventually save up for it. I will start with a decent bandsaw and try to figure out where this machine rabbit hole goes ....
What do you find more time-consuming when working by hand? Ripping wood or thicknessing? My assumption is that thicknessing wide and long boards should take much longer than ripping them. If I have 10 m of 25 mm thick rip cuts in a project, I can do it in 20-30 minutes (not in a single session presumably). But thicknessing 6 - 8 mm away on a wide and long board to get to the lowest point available on the opposing face (I rarely thickness to a number, just to the lowest point possible) seems more daunting. And furthermore, If I glue up a panel, I then need to thickness all the boards to the lowest point on all the boards (I know that I do not have to, but it looks nicer when someone looks underneath the table).
My question is then why many gurus advice bandsaw as the first machine for the hand tool woodworker, if thicknessing takes up more work (unless the woodworker needs to resaw a lot, which is a different animal than ripping)
My question is then why many gurus advice bandsaw as the first machine for the hand tool woodworker, if thicknessing takes up more work (unless the woodworker needs to resaw a lot, which is a different animal than ripping)
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
I haven't noticed that particularly from any sort of guru or author, seems 50/50 with the T/S to me.
Now we know what kinda work you're intending to do, it makes it easier for folks to give their 2cents...i.e refined freestanding work which perhaps has other embellishments or whatever, and stands out to the more well heeled..
rather than perhaps, affordable quality and functional enough to sell these items to pay the bills. Either way, the suggestions of many is to keep a good stock of mainly one or two timbers, to be able to match grain orientation and colour, and having the right stock at hand so as not to have to waste anything.
If you've got that right, and aiming for the former,
then I think most of the time and effort if doing things by hand without either machine
would be spent bookmatching and pairing with little wastage.
thikone
Established Member
Well, wide boards are not easy to plane in planer/thicknesser either. You might need a very big and expensive machine that has 500 or 600 mm wide capacity. Besides, I never plane more than 2 mm bellow flat surface. If it has to be 5 mm less then I use bandsaw to "thickness" it. Even now that I have planer/thicknesser, I don't remove more than 3 mm from both sides - I use bandsaw and save some wood. Also depends on thickness of rough sawn timber that you buy, makes me think hard on what thickness to buy... Argh, I just buy 50 or 52 mm and slice with the bandsaw what I need.
Of course, I have a lot of thin offcuts as result. But they are very useful - for doing something with children (small houses, furniture for puppets, scrollsaw), but also I glue them together and get thicker pieces and, even more importantly, more stable pieces. The closest model of wood is stratched ropes that are always under load. And the only way to have stable wood is by gluing to another piece to compensate for that. For example, I plan to build inner doors from beech and I plan to make rails and styles from 3 layers. Then I don't have to search for stable wood (is that called quarter sawn?) and I can make tenons and mortises by having middle layer longer or shorter.
When I make panels I cut planed boards to narrow pieces. Desired thickness of panel becomes strips width. I turn them on sides, plane them and glue them together. So panel might be wider than needed but not much thicker than needed.
For legs and such, sometimes it happens that the last leg is thinner than the first one and I need to plane others to match this thinner one. But then it is usually around 1 mm or so. And number of legs is limited, do doesn't matter so much.
In many other instances, it is not really needed to have all pieces of the same thickness. What is needed is one reference face and one reference edge (they usually become internal surfaces). It is more convenient and forgiving to work if all pieces are of the same thickness and all joinery is centered, but not really required. Don't approach it with machine or plywood mindset. Besides, quite often final planing is done after assembly.
Therefore, you should be prepared that not everything will go as planed. Means that you have to use actual dimensions as you go and not from the plan and account for deviations. Cut to length when you know actual dimensions and such.
Also I do ripping or even crosscutting and some joinery on bandsaw as well. Also with handheld circular saw or track saw. Tried jigsaw, but didn't like it so much, not my tool. I did experiment with hand saws. It is a form of fitness and it does go quite fast, but you get tired fast too. Don't do all ripping at once, do it between planing or something. Japanese saws are very good for ripping, but not so good for thick joinery (thin blade tends to find path of less resistance and tenon cheek might be wavy).
Bandsaw and hand planes worked for me for five years, although not very fast. Might be that one can work with thicknesser and hand planes. But I guess it will be very wasteful then. And no curvy cutting.
