The joys of electric car ownership!

[Fergie 307]

If you compare size for size the battery packs for an EV and a gallon of petrol then the problem becomes very clear, the concept of using an electric motor is nothing new and most people will realise it is a much better source of propulsion than the ICE and motors have been in use for decades in both diesel electric and all electric trains. The issue is still the battery and at this point in time we should not be jumping for all electric vehicles, we should be looking at hybrids where the combustion engine has no direct link to the wheels, ie not there for propulsion only as a power source for generating electricity and maybe even look at a very small gas turbine as the power source and then we have removed the issues with providing enough charging points and our national grid to just concentrating on the vehicle.

It has been said this push for all electric has been driven by the energy providers so as they can increase there profits and get the infrastructure updates paid for, then consider that they are mostly oversea's companies like EDF and Scottish power .

Interestingly I notice the ICE ban in 2030 does not apply to hybrids, they get a stay of execution till 2035. Assuming of course they don't back pedal on it all

 

[Jacob]

While you were looking through the Guardian archives did you see this? Wood burners emit more particle pollution than traffic, UK data shows

I did read the link about woodburners in London becoming restricted in new builds,but that won't remove the older and even dirtier examples that are currently in use.

It isn't all gloom though,the government website shows how particulate emission is on a steady decline in recent times. Emissions of air pollutants in the UK – Particulate matter (PM10 and PM2.5)

I did see it but it seems a bit ambiguous. But under review.

 

[Jacob]

I think Jacobs idea is that we wouldn't need it if we became self sufficient. A noble idea but really not going to work.

It'd work if we had no alternative, which looks possible. Nothing noble about it - it's about survival.

The primary reason we import so much is because it is cheaper to do so than to grow it, or make it ourselves. People would need to drastically alter their eating habits, and even then you would probably see prices increase to levels that many would simply not be able to afford.

Prices could force the issue. But there is the no meat option.

 

[Jacob]

If we did stop in the UK the difference is quote " nothing more than a rounding error " because we are only a very small contributor to the problem so it is the bigger players who need to address the issue first to make any significant change. So much of all these problems comes down to over populating the planet, it is this continous increase that is actually fueling the main issues and then our lifestyles are to hard on the planets resources so in reality we will still be talking about global warming and EV's when we reach the point of needing EB's and houses on stilts as the sea levels rise.

The blame game is a bit pointless. It's all stuff we are all responsible for. It's not over population it's over consumption by the wealthier parts of the world. China top total but well down the list per capita
https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/

 

[Fergie 307]

If you compare size for size the battery packs for an EV and a gallon of petrol then the problem becomes very clear, the concept of using an electric motor is nothing new and most people will realise it is a much better source of propulsion than the ICE and motors have been in use for decades in both diesel electric and all electric trains. The issue is still the battery and at this point in time we should not be jumping for all electric vehicles, we should be looking at hybrids where the combustion engine has no direct link to the wheels, ie not there for propulsion only as a power source for generating electricity and maybe even look at a very small gas turbine as the power source and then we have removed the issues with providing enough charging points and our national grid to just concentrating on the vehicle.

It has been said this push for all electric has been driven by the energy providers so as they can increase there profits and get the infrastructure updates paid for, then consider that they are mostly oversea's companies like EDF and Scottish power .

I think our love affair with battery EV versus hydrogen is a bit like someone who wants a better, faster way to cut down a tree concentrating on how to improve the design of an axe, whilst a chain saw sits ignored on the shelf behind him

 

[Sachakins]

The blame game is a bit pointless. It's all stuff we are all responsible for. It's not over population it's over consumption by the wealthier parts of the world. China top total but well down the list per capita
https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/

Be very careful of the per capita type analysis. It is almost always used by massive populous countries to prove they are less damaging the countries of lesser populations, but the total emissions are far more damaging than any per capita analysis.

If you were to look at it as per capita of those who consume it, then China would be back at top, since the vast majority of their population actual use very little of the countries polluting energy sources.

 

[John Brown]

If we did stop in the UK the difference is quote " nothing more than a rounding error " because we are only a very small contributor to the problem so it is the bigger players who need to address the issue first to make any significant change. So much of all these problems comes down to over populating the planet, it is this continous increase that is actually fueling the main issues and then our lifestyles are to hard on the planets resources so in reality we will still be talking about global warming and EV's when we reach the point of needing EB's and houses on stilts as the sea levels rise.

I read this a lot, the global population figures are the big problem, but I don't believe it. The wealthy, less populated countries are the big polluters.
I also despair of the "whatever we do is a drop in the ocean, so let's just sit on our hands and do nothing" mentality. Where's that going to get us?

 

[Spectric]

I also despair of the "whatever we do is a drop in the ocean, so let's just sit on our hands and do nothing" mentality. Where's that going to get us?

If you are asking a nation to make drastic changes to the way they have lived for decades then the goal has to be both achieveable and worthwhile, making big changes that have a negative impact on a society for no other reason than to be able to try and earn some brownie points at the next COP get together is not a good enough excuse especially as we have thrown what credability we did have down the drain by allowing a new coal mine.

 

[Fergie 307]

Well the argument would presumably be that if we do still need to use coal, or gas and oil for that matter, is it better to use our own, or have in shipped in from Australia or somewhere? We will continue to need fossil fuels for some time yet, oil pretty much forever unless we can learn to do without plastics. IF it is indeed intended as a relatively short term measure whilst we continue to build up our green energy capacity, then I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. If not using it at all is not yet an option, then how can we argue that digging the stuff up in our own back hard is really bad, but shipping it halfway around the world is somehow more acceptable. That would be non sensical. All depends whether there is genuinely a need for it.

 

[Ozi]

I guess both were nutters and their ideas nonsense.
Mind you swapping batteries looks like a good idea; big pile of batteries on charge 24/7, drive in, swap batteries, drive out. Seems to solve a lot of problems. Why is it not on the agenda?

I thought this was the way forward and still think it may become possible but the complexity of connection at present makes it inpractical, it's not yet plug and go heating and cooling also required. If batteries get smaller and we get a European or better still world standard battery then maybe

 

[Ozi]

Which is why it has been easier for Scandinavian countrues to adapt to EVs - the power cabling infrastructure in public and company car parks and at home was there already for winter engine heating.

I don't know what the power requirement of a block heated is but I would think it's small compared to charging loads, I've only seen the sockets and they are not that big.

 

[Ozi]

Are you equally amazed that:
1. It has a population of 5M
2. A sovereign wealth fund of $1.5TN
3. 1% of their electricity is from fossil fuel.
4. Most of their oil and gas production is exported (unlike UK)
4. Battery conditioning takes a few hundreds of watts.

The 1% figure is impressive but they have a lot of hydro which helps.
The graph below is not for an automotive battery but the performance was similar a few years ago, heating a battery the size of those currently in EVs takes more than a few watts if ambient is down to the lower end of this graph

Am I impressed by Norway - in many ways yes

 

[Fergie 307]

But most of those innovations became mainstream until legislation or consumer demand forced the situation. The reason for that was the cost vs what could be made from them. It’s the same with batteries now. Current legislation is pushing the adoption of battery vehicles and there is now money to be made. Now the consumer demand for more range/efficiency will drive the inovation.

Not entirely true. Most ICE innovation has always come from racing, where many of the things we now take for granted were first developed. Often these ideas then remained in that arena for years, because there was no perceived demand in the mainstream. Then when we started to be concerned about fuel consumption and emissions, these ideas were rolled out. As far as I am aware there are no geeks out there with batteries that outperform current technology several fold and, crucially, are practical for large scale production.

 

[NormanB]

The 1% figure is impressive but they have a lot of hydro which helps.
The graph below is not for an automotive battery but the performance was similar a few years ago, heating a battery the size of those currently in EVs takes more than a few watts if ambient is down to the lower end of this graph

Am I impressed by Norway - in many ways yes

View attachment 163692

You misunderstand the graph you selected for your reply.

 

[Dave Moore]

Are you equally amazed that:
1. It has a population of 5M
2. A sovereign wealth fund of $1.5TN
3. 1% of their electricity is from fossil fuel.
4. Most of their oil and gas production is exported (unlike UK)
4. Battery conditioning takes a few hundreds of watts.

While Maggie Thatcher allowed others to profit from North Sea oil and gas as well as funding the police during the miners strike, Norway invested in their infrastructure. From being a relatively poor country before oil and gas, they invested into their country actually having their own state oil company(Statoil) unlike we allowed others to make money off the back of us.

 

[Dave Moore]

Whatever happened to that guy in the west counrty that had invented ev batteries made from old allumiium beer cans? He presented his ideas on tv some time ago and his batteries were about the size of a pancake, weighed ounces and gave an incredible range. His notion was that you recycled them at Asda by swapping for a fresh one. My freind looked into his operation and found that had bought the Austin name and had financial backers etc. I figured that his batteries were single use and not rechargable but he seems to have disappeared into thin air or been bought out! I am old enough to remember a British guy inventing a four cylinder engine made of plastic where all four cylinders were inside each other and it ran on water. He was last seen boarding a 'plane for the US with his engine in has hand baggage! Never heard of again - bought out by an oil giant?

About 30 yrs ago a British guy invented an alternative to petrol and went into partnership with two guys who tried to rip him off but he didnt give them the full formula. They eventually got jailed and it was front page news in the Daily Mirror. Never heard of again. The Liverpool uni professor who ran a car on Coca Cola instead of oil who sold it to the oil compani…

 

[Just4Fun]

I don't know what the power requirement of a block heated is but I would think it's small compared to charging loads, I've only seen the sockets and they are not that big.

"Block heater" seems to be a bit of a misnomer. Generally they don't really heat the block. Instead the aim is that the oil is warm enough to flow freely around the engine to reduce wear during cold start-ups. The engine still takes a while to heat up when you drive away - it isn't warm enough to run the heater immediately, for example.

Where I am (Finland) many cars also have a small mains fan heater in the cabin to heat it up. These work well. Our cabin heater is, I think, about 500. I don't know the power rating of our block heater, but the two heaters (cabin and block) run off the same electrical supply which is a standard domestic socket. I think all the sockets used for car heating are the same rating as a standard domestic socket. Not high-rated supplies suitable for fast EV charging.

A related issue is that in winter most people(*) will still want to run a cabin heater, so that would reduce the current available to charge an EV.

A minor problem is that the supplies are generally on timers, because you only want to heat the car/engine just before you go out. You don't want to heat the car all night. On mine, I hit a button to run the heaters for a half hour, 1 hour or 2 hours before I go out. Others are on those old-style rotary timers like you used to get on emersion heaters. The issue would be that you would still only want the heater running just before you go out but the charging would need to run for a longer period. Not an impossible problem to solve, but the existing supplies could need updating.

(*) I say most people because not everyone uses mains heaters, and not everyone has the option. Also not every car has these heaters fitted. One of our two cars does, and one doesn't.

 

[OldGreyDog]

It's not about raising cash it's about saving lives and reducing illness. And is undoubtedly saving massive amounts of cash on the health front.
https://www.london.gov.uk/new-repor...this landmark,air for four million Londoners.There's more support for ULEZ than opposition - it's just that latter are egged on by the media and make more noise. Khan is very likely to get voted in again unless he is deselected by Starmer (Sunak's agent in the Labour party) which is quite likely to happen.
Sunak is feebly backing off on ULEZ and green issues as a whole. Starmer will follow his lead. Rishi Sunak urges Sadiq Khan to 'think twice' on Ulez expansion
This is interesting: What Leuven taught me about ULEZ

On a positive note there seem to be rumours from other candidates that if Khan goes, so will the extension to the ULEZ zone, whether or not its already been implemented.

 

[Keith Cocker]

On a positive note there seem to be rumours from other candidates that if Khan goes, so will the extension to the ULEZ zone, whether or not its already been implemented.

That’s a positive note? Get real.

 

[Jameshow]

"Block heater" seems to be a bit of a misnomer. Generally they don't really heat the block. Instead the aim is that the oil is warm enough to flow freely around the engine to reduce wear during cold start-ups. The engine still takes a while to heat up when you drive away - it isn't warm enough to run the heater immediately, for example.

Where I am (Finland) many cars also have a small mains fan heater in the cabin to heat it up. These work well. Our cabin heater is, I think, about 500. I don't know the power rating of our block heater, but the two heaters (cabin and block) run off the same electrical supply which is a standard domestic socket. I think all the sockets used for car heating are the same rating as a standard domestic socket. Not high-rated supplies suitable for fast EV charging.

A related issue is that in winter most people(*) will still want to run a cabin heater, so that would reduce the current available to charge an EV.

A minor problem is that the supplies are generally on timers, because you only want to heat the car/engine just before you go out. You don't want to heat the car all night. On mine, I hit a button to run the heaters for a half hour, 1 hour or 2 hours before I go out. Others are on those old-style rotary timers like you used to get on emersion heaters. The issue would be that you would still only want the heater running just before you go out but the charging would need to run for a longer period. Not an impossible problem to solve, but the existing supplies could need updating.

(*) I say most people because not everyone uses mains heaters, and not everyone has the option. Also not every car has these heaters fitted. One of our two cars does, and one doesn't.

My dad always put a fan heater (old blue metal rotary jobbie!) In the car after work cue an ice free car in the morning!