Table saw safety

[Doug71]

Here's another (recently converted!) proponent of both Sawstop and two pushsticks - Reg Kreuger, who got a pretty good chunk taken out of his left thumb when he lost concentration while making repeated rips and recovering the offcut with his left hand for the next rip. .

There are so many Youtube videos of people having accidents it's almost like they do it on purpose for views. Reg Kreugers accident isn't really a great advert for Sawstop and shows you still need to take care when using one.

Another thing to notice about that vid is the blade looks to be fully up. The saw he has is 80mm depth of cut, and it looks like its up to max. The timber he's cutting looks to be about 1",maybe 30mm.
Personally I have it so just about the gullets clear. Say about 8mm through the workpiece.

My blade stays at full height, I see no problem with this if it's properly guarded. It means the blade is pushing the timber down to the table rather than back at you, also less teeth in the cut so not as much heat generated and blades last longer (that's the theory anyway). If I wasn't using a crown guard I would drop the blade down to the height you suggest though.

 

[TRITON]

So it would appear that he's a complete ****, and also has 292k subscribers.

Theres hope for the rest of us yet

 

[TRITON]

My blade stays at full height

So amateurish

It means the blade is pushing the timber down to the table rather than back at you

Point of fact I understand what you are saying, but if youre increasing the cutting angle it might increase the blunting effect, also its not really cutting in the way each tooth angle was designed to, its more slamming into the timber.

 

[BorisTheBlade]

Ok I think I've found a solve to my issue with the two push sticks. My concern is the lack of control you get with a push stick in regards to being able to keep contact with the material whilst putting pressure laterally and vertically as it works through the blade. I don't have one but I plan on getting a featherboard. I feel without this, it's not safe but maybe some people use two push sticks WHILST using this and you only need worry about lateral pressure.

I'm still researching about the hand on the table side of things but really, even the HSE guidance seems brief and ambiguous. I would have thought there would be more in depth info on something that is potentially such high risk. I'll report back my findings and see if my summation of info makes sense to the elders of the workshop. (Moustache/beard specialism preferable)

 

[Bingy man]

Can I ask for your views on the use of the 3D push blocks I mentioned earlier, they can be set (carefully of course) so the blade passes above the workpiece but below the pushblock- made by micro jig. it allows you to apply downward pressure and lateral and can be set to apply pressure to the off cut or waste piece to reduce kickback and remove the risk of clearing it away from blade with a push stick. Once set up I do a dry run( power off ) to confirm the blade doesn’t come into contact with the push block or more importantly my hand holding the pushblock— interested in your and other members thoughts .I’ve also made a simple frame which has two feather boards attached to assist with repeat ripping cuts. This keeps enough lateral pressure to keep the timber against the fence ..

 

[Doug71]

A couple of sample threads for the newer members to look through as an example of how the 2 push sticks and grrripper thing gets done to death on a regular basis.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/are-grippers-much-safer-than-push-sticks.124516/
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/thread...cks-to-cut-wood-safely-on-a-table-saw.130321/
Hopefully you will find all you need in the above.

It's a no to Grrrippers by the way.

 

[Jacob]

Ok I think I've found a solve to my issue with the two push sticks. My concern is the lack of control you get with a push stick in regards to being able to keep contact with the material whilst putting pressure laterally and vertically as it works through the blade.......

With a bit of practice I found that 2 push sticks actually improves contact and control. The standard model is a subtle shape not unlike a hand with thumb down and fingers curled, just as you would apply your hand to the workpiece. Very adaptable between pressure in and/or down and free of risk means tighter control near the blade.
And you get that extra long reach for a steady uninterrupted pass, and the ability to flip offcuts out of the way when close to the blade . etc, etc

 

[Bingy man]

A couple of sample threads for the newer members to look through as an example of how the 2 push sticks and grrripper thing gets done to death on a regular basis.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/are-grippers-much-safer-than-push-sticks.124516/
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/thread...cks-to-cut-wood-safely-on-a-table-saw.130321/
Hopefully you will find all you need in the above.

It's a no to Grrrippers by the way.

Thanks for the info and I will certainly give this a read - as a fairly new table saw user it’s often overwhelming at the different ways to get the job done safely and I’d rather trust the advice from this forum over some unknown utuber just out for ratings.

 

[Bingy man]

With a bit of practice I found that 2 push sticks actually improves contact and control. The standard model is a subtle shape not unlike a hand with thumb down and fingers curled, just as you would apply your hand to the workpiece. Very adaptable between pressure in and/or down and free of risk means tighter control near the blade.
And you get that extra long reach for a steady uninterrupted pass, and the ability to flip offcuts out of the way when close to the blade . etc, etc

Until I started reading this thread I,d never heard of using 2 push sticks to feed the work piece through the saw. Left hand on the work piece to apply pressure towards the fence and downwards while the push stick was used towards the end of the cut . I’ll be reading the threads linked by @DOUG 71 as don’t want to adopt bad habits and pay the cost at some point .

 

[BorisTheBlade]

A couple of sample threads for the newer members to look through as an example of how the 2 push sticks and grrripper thing gets done to death on a regular basis.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/are-grippers-much-safer-than-push-sticks.124516/
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/thread...cks-to-cut-wood-safely-on-a-table-saw.130321/
Hopefully you will find all you need in the above.

It's a no to Grrrippers by the way.

Just had a look at the threads and phew that's a lot of push sticks Great resources to have to hand, thanks for sharing.

 

[Bingy man]

A couple of sample threads for the newer members to look through as an example of how the 2 push sticks and grrripper thing gets done to death on a regular basis.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/are-grippers-much-safer-than-push-sticks.124516/
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/thread...cks-to-cut-wood-safely-on-a-table-saw.130321/
Hopefully you will find all you need in the above.

It's a no to Grrrippers by the way.

Well I’ve gone over these threads and watched the videos and clicked on the various links several times to fully understand the information and advise. It leads me to believe I’ve been working in an unsafe manner and to date I’ve probably been lucky. So out goes the pushblock for table saw use , the riving knife will never be removed again -ditto for the guard . As I often cut reclaimed solid wood (mainly from old oak furniture) I will be making a shorter sub fence for use with solid wood. Please advise me if my summing up is correct.

2nd ask is in the uk table saw video (safety tip no 8 ) refers to not cutting a board wider than the width using the fence but doesn’t explain why not ?? Advise pls… he then refers to feeding a board in along the fence but standing at the side of the saw( jobsite) and says this is ok and a safe place to be . I will openly confess I’ve used this method but it does mean hands on the table ..again advise pls as it’s my intention to take the advice on this thread and remove any bad unsafe practices as new t/s user - btw I have found this thread both informative and interesting and enlightening. Thank you all for the important safety lesson. Oh and I have the dewalt 745 as in the uk safety video.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

There have been a few mentions of using hold downs on a bench/table saw, so I'm just going to add a note on their utility.

Their usefulness for helping guide wood and aiding safety whilst ripping rough sawn boards is essentially non-existent in my experience. The reason for that is the wood varies too much in thickness, width and warp so the hold downs generally can't be set to accommodate all those variances.

Hold down and guides can be set where the wood has been squared (or otherwise prepared to a particular profile, e.g. one edge bevelled) and there are multiple parts all of the same profile. This means removing the riving knife and crown guard (frowned upon), but HSE guidelines indicate that operations of this type can be done with a decent margin for safety if suitable alternative guarding is installed: well thought out hold downs much as just described would seem to fit the bill, and is similar to work holding devices typically used on spindle moulders. Slainte.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Point of fact I understand what you are saying, but if youre increasing the cutting angle it might increase the blunting effect, also its not really cutting in the way each tooth angle was designed to, its more slamming into the timber.

With all due respect, this is completely incorrect and not a “point of fact” whatsoever.

The tooth cutting angle is dictated by the angle the tooth is set on the rim of the blade relative to the centre of rotation and not the height of the blade relative to the timber. What does change with the blade height is the trajectory the tooth travels through the timber, the lower the blade is the more long grain you will be cutting which will result in stringy chips which are difficult to remove from the gullets, whereas a blade that is higher will be cutting more short grain, resulting in finer chips and generally an easier time cutting as those fine chips don’t build up in the gullets as readily as the stringy ones.

 

[TRITON]

With all due respect, this is completely incorrect and not a “point of fact” whatsoever.

The tooth cutting angle is dictated by the angle the tooth is set on the rim of the blade relative to the centre of rotation and not the height of the blade relative to the timber. What does change with the blade height is the trajectory the tooth travels through the timber, the lower the blade is the more long grain you will be cutting which will result in stringy chips which are difficult to remove from the gullets, whereas a blade that is higher will be cutting more short grain, resulting in finer chips and generally an easier time cutting as those fine chips don’t build up in the gullets as readily as the stringy ones.

Are you disagreeing with me, or Doug71 ?
Im just trying to keep the peace. Yes i understand hook angle, and having the blade up full doesnt give you any magical benefits, and decreases safety to some extent, but i chose that words because i didnt want to antagonize the situation.
If you now wish to do so please quote Doug712 and not myself

Ta much

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Are you disagreeing with me, or Doug71 ?
Im just trying to keep the peace. Yes i understand hook angle, and having the blade up full doesnt give you any magical benefits, and decreases safety to some extent, but i chose that words because i didnt want to antagonize the situation.
If you now wish to do so please quote Doug712 and not myself

What I quoted is what you wrote isn't it? You said that:

but if youre increasing the cutting angle it might increase the blunting effect, also its not really cutting in the way each tooth angle was designed to, its more slamming into the timber.

Which is completely incorrect, as per what I've written above.

 

[Doug71]

I think a good analogy is how you use a bandsaw. If the table saw blade is set high the teeth that are cutting are coming straight down like the teeth on a bandsaw. If you are cutting something on the bandsaw and have a choice you have it flat on the table not stood on end. Using a bandsaw with the stock stood on end is like having the table saw blade set low as it's cutting straight in to the end grain which is harder work. I know that's taking it to the extreme but that's how I see it

Oh and by the way hello and welcome to the forum @Against_The_Grain

 

[TRITON]

Oh and by the way hello and welcome to the forum @Against_The_Grain

Ditto and straight in there We have a handbags at dawn thread, i reckon you need to check it out Have you met Jacob yet ?

If the table saw blade is set high the teeth that are cutting are coming straight down like the teeth on a bandsaw

Erummmmm, not so. They're travelling in an arc arent they ? The only time they would be straight is what would be the middle of the spindle, and the table is well about the spindle, so i reckon on for example my own saw, which is a 10" blade, 80mm of cut. Half the blade from the center of the spindle, which is give or take 5" or 125mm, minus the 80mm dept of cut, so at the point of cut directly in line of the top of the table it would be 45mm above the center point, so will be moving in an arc. and being about the spindle, by nearly 2" the arc would still be side on, from the approximate left.

If it wasnt for the amount of junk i keep on my sawbench, id be out with the angle finder and work out exactly what it would be on a 1" section, top through bottom.
But i think given the position of the blade, the spindle and he table we can agree its an arc, and not a bandsaw which is straight down.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Erummmmm, not so. They're travelling in an arc arent they ? The only time they would be straight is what would be the middle of the spindle, and the table is well about the spindle, so i reckon on for example my own saw, which is a 10" blade, 80mm of cut. Half the blade from the center of the spindle, which is give or take 5" or 125mm, minus the 80mm dept of cut, so at the point of cut directly in line of the top of the table it would be 45mm above the center point, so will be moving in an arc. and being about the spindle, by nearly 2" the arc would still be side on, from the approximate left.

If it wasnt for the amount of junk i keep on my sawbench, id be out with the angle finder and work out exactly what it would be on a 1" section, top through bottom.
But i think given the position of the blade, the spindle and he table we can agree its an arc, and not a bandsaw which is straight down.

Yes, the teeth are travelling in an arc, but naturally the higher the blade is the closer the front of the blade comes to a perpendicular cut downwards, as you say it will never be truly a perpendicular cut unless the centreline of the blade was level with the table. I believe the analogy used is still valid, it is much more labouring to cut long grain than short grain, and the difference of a cut on the bandsaw having the grain parallel to the table and the grain perpendicular with the end grain up will show this, it is much the same with a circular saw.

A 400mm blade will have an easier time cutting 75mm thick section with the blade at full height than it will with the gullets just protruding above the workpiece, the reason being that with the gullets just above the piece your arc through the cut is relatively shallow and there are a lot of teeth in contact with the piece during the cut, producing very stringy shavings (long grain) that generate a lot of friction. By contrast, with the blade at full height the teeth are mostly cutting completely downward and the bare minimum number of teeth is in the workpiece, the debris resultant from the higher arc is much finer (short grain) and easier on the blade to eject completely keeping the blade cooler during cutting.

 

[TRITON]

~Right ok, TLR but i will. Second you mentioned a 400mm blade i typed this reply. We aren't talking about a 400mmm blade, for the most part here, in relation to the accident vid shown, we're talking about a 250mm blade as that is the blade that saw takes, so best keep to that and not a hypothetical that suit the point of view.

The reason we set the blade at the height it is set at, say 6-8mm through the workpiece is because most of those here who do that, do so because they were taught to do that. You dont get a degree in cabinetmaking and furniture design if you go about ignoring the HSE safety instructions being taught to you and go off and do something else.

Now im sure most of us can think or imagine this is what happens when a blade at X height impacts the timber at Z but without an actual computer model showing exactly what happens then it is supposition.
I've already shown that due to the position of the spindle in relation to the table height above that spindle that the blade IS NOT slicing into the timber at a downward trajectory.

This accident occurred through carelessness. He was careless through complacency, and should have used his push stick to knock the offcut side further away from the blade before reaching for it. In all honesty it doesnt matter if the blade was fully up or in its proper position, though fully up there was more exposed blade to likely increase the risk and chances of the accident beign a serious one.

But the bottom line is he should have used a pushstick. Two makes it easy as one is already in your left hand, but it is no trouble at all to use the right side to knock the offcut clear, or even to swop it to his left hand and do that. He was wrong because he had gotten into the habit of using his hand too close to the blade, and eventually it bit him. Thankfully he is using sawstop, because if he wasnt, that wouldnt be a simple elastoplast wrapped around the end of his thumb and would be a big gigantic hospital wound dressing.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

~Right ok, TLR but i will. Second you mentioned a 400mm blade i typed this reply. We aren't talking about a 400mmm blade, for the most part here, in relation to the accident vid shown, we're talking about a 250mm blade as that is the blade that saw takes, so best keep to that and not a hypothetical that suit the point of view.

It works the same with any height of blade relative to the thickness of timber, say a 250mm blade with a 40mm piece of timber. I used a 400mm blade as an example because that's my day-to-day machine.

The reason we set the blade at the height it is set at, say 6-8mm through the workpiece is because most of those here who do that, do so because they were taught to do that. You dont get a degree in cabinetmaking and furniture design if you go about ignoring the HSE safety instructions being taught to you and go off and do something else.

I'm not sure how the qualification is relevant to the discussion but OK. My C&G cabinetmaking qualification isn't one I'm particularly fond of as it was so easy to achieve and most of the people on the course were only there for the government grant money, making anything was almost optional and you got a shiny certificate at the end of the year for it, practically worthless really. It is much more difficult to get a wood machining diploma as there is a lot more theoretical work involved.

Now im sure most of us can think or imagine this is what happens when a blade at X height impacts the timber at Z but without an actual computer model showing exactly what happens then it is supposition.
I've already shown that due to the position of the spindle in relation to the table height above that spindle that the blade IS NOT slicing into the timber at a downward trajectory.

It's not downward, it's just more downward than a cut where the gullets are just above the workpiece, resulting in easier cutting because you're cutting short grain, not long grain.

This accident occurred through carelessness. He was careless through complacency, and should have used his push stick to knock the offcut side further away from the blade before reaching for it. In all honesty it doesnt matter if the blade was fully up or in its proper position, though fully up there was more exposed blade to likely increase the risk and chances of the accident beign a serious one.

But the bottom line is he should have used a pushstick. Two makes it easy as one is already in your left hand, but it is no trouble at all to use the right side to knock the offcut clear, or even to swop it to his left hand and do that. He was wrong because he had gotten into the habit of using his hand too close to the blade, and eventually it bit him. Thankfully he is using sawstop, because if he wasnt, that wouldnt be a simple elastoplast wrapped around the end of his thumb and would be a big gigantic hospital wound dressing.

My argument was not about two pushsticks or whatever the fella did, it was your completely incorrect supposition about the angle changing as the blade height increases and decreases and causing more of a blunting effect, which is not true whatsoever.