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table saw fence question

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sunnybob

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Still learning my new table saw. Mostly its pretty damm good but I am confused about the fence adjustments.
it has a full length fence. I think this fence is a marvel of ingenuity with infinite adjustments, but if I adjust the fence to be parallel with the blade, the wood kicks up on the back of the blade.
If I adjust it in very slow increments to stop the wood kicking up, its now far enough out of true to make the wood slop from side to side and make the cut ragged.

I've seen here many times where people say the fence should not go past the blade, but every video i see of "master" woodworkers they have a full length fence.
I usually cut quite small pieces of wood and if the fence did not continue past the entire width of the blade (and then a litle bit further) all hell would break loose as the piece went beyond the fence support.

So... obvious question... how do I make my table saw fence perfect?
 

Ttrees

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Presuming your timber surfaced on face and edge.
So...
Is the table insert flush with the table?

Fence alignment is personal preference, I have mine set a hair away at the back of the blade, using the pick a tooth method that aligns
the blade to the table slots, and fence adjusted thereafter.
I dont use the full length fence, as i've an auxiliary board attached to it.
I've been considering going Steve Maskerys route though, for jigs and the like.

Tom
 

Noel

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Have you checked the straightyness of the fence?
Flat blade?
Any burn marks on heavier bits of stock? (try a bit of Oak or Mahog)
Are you using push sticks/shoes?
 

Noel

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Ttrees":2cgjx8ou said:
Presuming your timber surfaced on face and edge.
So...
Is the table insert flush with the table?

Fence alignment is personal preference, I have mine set a hair away at the back of the blade, using the pick a tooth method that aligns
the blade to the table slots, and fence adjusted thereafter.
I dont use the full length fence, as i've an auxiliary board attached to it.
I've been considering going Steve Maskerys route though, for jigs and the like.

Tom
Would agree Tom, table/slots aligned to blade and then fence to blade. Would check any new TS and periodically thereafter.
 

Lons

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Assuming all the other points are covered Bob I'd recommend a sub fence, I use mine permanently.

I made it from a scrap bit of 1/2" Corian and just fitted to the fence with 3 nuts and bolts ( I filed flats on the nuts to suit the channel of my original fence and countersunk the bolt heads.
It ends at the back of the blade but is easily slid along to any other position if I wished.

I have some proper photos somewhere but this is probably enough to show what I did.
 

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sunnybob

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I have aligned the blade to the mitre slot. Its less than 0.01 mm out.
The blade is a freud 60 tooth that has never been dropped or even resharpened yet.
The fence was originally then adjusted to the blade but thats when the wood started kicking up at the back marking the cut surface.

Its a dewalt 745 saw. The fence is a box section ali casting that is as straight as any ruler I possess. I could fit a half fence, but there are no slots in the box section so i could not slide it for adjustment.

I'm just a little frustrated that every video i watch the wood comes off the saw with a glue up quality edge, and I cant get that.
 
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Could it be the way you are feeding the wood in?

If using a pushstick, you want to be pushing nearer to the blade, as opposed to nearer to the fence.
 

Jacob

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I presume you have fitted a riving knife, that will help.
Left to its own devices in a perfectly adjusted TS a workpiece is very likely to get picked up by the back of the blade - it only takes a tiny movement to move it over. So maybe you need to look at keeping it in tight to the fence and down on the bed with push sticks and/or feathers?
I always use two push sticks with my TS - the standard pattern nothing fancy, and copies in ply - they get wrecked easily.
push12 copy.jpg
 

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Noel

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transatlantic":3gid5n3v said:
Could it be the way you are feeding the wood in?

If using a pushstick, you want to be pushing nearer to the blade, as opposed to nearer to the fence.
Exact opposite for me, stock needs to adhere to the fence (assuming I'm reading your post correctly).
 

Farmer Giles

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If you have replaced the blade with a Freud, is it thicker than the old one? If so it may mean the riving knife isn't doing much so you get more kick back. Ideally the riving knife should be thicker than the blade but not as thick as the kerf.
 

Noel

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sunnybob":6b1vpux6 said:
I have aligned the blade to the mitre slot. Its less than 0.01 mm out.
The blade is a freud 60 tooth that has never been dropped or even resharpened yet.
The fence was originally then adjusted to the blade but thats when the wood started kicking up at the back marking the cut surface.

Its a dewalt 745 saw. The fence is a box section ali casting that is as straight as any ruler I possess. I could fit a half fence, but there are no slots in the box section so i could not slide it for adjustment.

I'm just a little frustrated that every video i watch the wood comes off the saw with a glue up quality edge, and I cant get that.
Pushsticks/shoes?
 
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Noel":a280xj2c said:
transatlantic":a280xj2c said:
Could it be the way you are feeding the wood in?

If using a pushstick, you want to be pushing nearer to the blade, as opposed to nearer to the fence.
Exact opposite for me, stock needs to adhere to the fence (assuming I'm reading your post correctly).
If you push with your stick nearer to the fence, it will tend to rotate the workpiece into the blade. Bad
If you push with your stick nearer to the blade, it will align the workpiece firmly with the fence. Good
 

Noel

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transatlantic":3v5tkoai said:
Noel":3v5tkoai said:
transatlantic":3v5tkoai said:
Could it be the way you are feeding the wood in?

If using a pushstick, you want to be pushing nearer to the blade, as opposed to nearer to the fence.
Exact opposite for me, stock needs to adhere to the fence (assuming I'm reading your post correctly).
If you push with your stick nearer to the fence, it will tend to rotate the workpiece into the blade. Bad
If you push with your stick nearer to the blade, it will align the workpiece firmly with the fence. Good
Ah, see what you are saying now, positioning of pushstick.
So we concur.
 

Myfordman

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I can't see any reason for a rough edge after sawing that can depend on the fence to blade angle.
If the fence tapers away from the blade then the width of the cut is defined by the lead edge blade teeth and if it taper toward the back of the blade then the rear teeth take a second dust cut of the width and the jo is slightly narrower and with the risk of it picking up as the OP has found. However pressure from push sticks as described above will reduce the pick up risk.
Freud blades are good and the ones I use most of the time. My stock comes off the saw so it hardly needs sanding let alone touching with a plane.

The only way I can see a rough surface being produced is wobble in the blade rise and fall. tilt or bearings. Always lock both the height and tilt settings to minimise this.
 

Jacob

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transatlantic":1n7l19s9 said:
Noel":1n7l19s9 said:
Ah, see what you are saying now, positioning of pushstick.
So we concur.
Here is a video that explains it better.

https://youtu.be/WJ9P9vCIlPI?t=1636

Although I don't think his push stick is very robust! .. but you get the idea
He needs a riving knife and two push sticks. You can't control it with just one.
 

deema

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For sheet material / man made board you can get away with using the entire length of the fence, there is very little chance of the stuff bending / warping into the blade. For any natural wood, best and safest practice is to add a sub fence as stated, this should only support the wood as far as the gullets of the saw teeth and no further. This, with the riving knife helps t9 prevent any wood movement causing the blade to be pinched and a change of trousers moment. The traditional alignment of the fence was to have it angles circa 1~2 degrees away from the blade.

There are two possible reasons for the issues your having.
I suspect your blade is not flat. This would both explain why your not getting a smooth cut and also when difficulty in actually getting the fence aligned rather than towed in.

The other issue could be worn bearings / bent spindle. Remove the driving belts and with the owner off grab hold of the blade and give it a good pull back and forth. Any movement and it explains your issues.

One last thought, if the blade is properly seated on the spindle / support flanges have any dirt on them / lock nut not tightened fully up could also produce the same effect, a wobble on the saw.
 

Ttrees

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sunnybob":3b2vioji said:
Its a dewalt 745 saw. The fence is a box section ali casting that is as straight as any ruler I possess. I could fit a half fence, but there are no slots in the box section so i could not slide it for adjustment.
Try using a spirit level or something else to check that fence! every ruler I have has a good millimeter of a bow in the middle of them.
Taking it the insert is flush then.

As for adjusting a half fence, a design which slots onto the fence snugly and can be flipped around for other operations might be useful.
 

Jacob

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sunnybob":4galhz2w said:
Its a dewalt 745 saw. The fence is a box section ali casting that is as straight as any ruler I possess. I could fit a half fence, but there are no slots in the box section so i could not slide it for adjustment.
Drill a couple of holes through and screw on a bit of scrap mdf etc as short fence.
 
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