Spindle moulder profile cutter blocks

[aebersold]

Hello there,
I wish to purchase a profile cutter block for my spindle moulder and would like to know the advantages/disadvantages of euro style versus serrated blocks. Any info would be welcome please ? Also I would like to cut tenons on the SM, cut close to the shoulders with my radial arm crosscut saw and but finish with a shoulder plane as this seems to give a really crisp accurate cut. Would an adjustable groover like the felder 250mm two piece be better than two saw blades ? Any ideas from anyone with similar desires would be most welcome.

 

[custard]

What spindle moulder are you using? Do you have a sliding table, an adequate tenoning hood, a means of securing the workpiece and a backing board to the sliding table? What would be the typical size of your tenons? How are you cutting the mortices?

I can see how you could cut a tenon with an adjustable groover, but it's really not the best tool for the job, there are better (and cheaper) alternatives but exactly what depends on some of the above questions.

 

[ProShop]

Euro blocks are useful for small mouldings usually 40mm depth & access you to the ready made cutters that are out there. Serrated blocks are bigger usually starting at 125mm dia and varying depths and used for much bigger mouldings, the cutters are much thicker to allow for this. A lot depends on the size of your machine (can it spin up big heavy blocks). As to making tennons the Felder one you mention is not cheap, there are better ones out there at a better price. Have you thought about buying a pair of tennoning discs used with a spacing kit so you can vary the thickness of the tennon.

HTH

 

[aebersold]

Thank you guys for your responses, really helpful. Just to clarify a couple of points, I have recently purchased a Felder combination machine BF6-31 which has just under 3hp motors. The Spindle moulder has speeds from 3700 - 7000 so will run slow enough for the larger cutters. I believe the table opening is about 200mm (can't get to it just now). As a hobbyist furniture maker I cut tenons up to roughly 75mm long. The reason I looked at the felder tenoning discs is for their versatility of being able to cut mortices in bridle joints and tenons with a wide range, avoiding the hassle of HSS cutters. I will be cutting mortices with a mortice machine once I have refurbished it. The felder does have a good sliding table and the cross cut fence is sturdy although I do need to purchase a good quality hold down clamp. I also need to find or make a larger guard for tenoning as the existing moulder fence is too small. I'd be interested in your suggestions as to a better method for cutting tenons as you mention Custard ? How does all that sound, am I on the right road ?

 

[custard]

Yes, you're certainly on the right road with the BF6. I use a CF741 and there's no problems cutting tenons in one go (ie without any pre cutting to rough it into shape). I agree with Proshop that a pair of tenoning cutters is the best option, but you will need a tenoning hood for guarding and a secure means of holding down both the workpiece and the backing board...and I mean really secure. The risk with tenoning is that the workpiece or backing board get dragged into the cutter and large splinters or pieces of chewed up wood get thrown around the workshop.

You can cut tenons accurately and cleanly with just one inexpensive rebate block such as this one,

http://www.axminster.co.uk/axcaliber-2- ... rod873573/

The scribing knives will give you a clean shoulder line. But there are some problems with this method. Firstly the length of the tenon is limited, and secondly it works best when the tenon is centred on the workpiece (meaning you can just flip it over for a second pass), but you have to be confident that each rail that you're tenoning is absolutely uniform in thickness, because with a single cutter head the final thickness of the tenon is a function of the thickness of the rail. If however you use a pair of tenoning heads such as these,

http://www.axminster.co.uk/whitehill-wh ... rod824566/

then the thickness of the tenon is a function of the spacers that you place between the two cutterheads, and is independent of the thickness of the workpiece.

Finally, finishing a tenon with hand tools should only be with the lightest of cuts for an absolutely perfect fit, it shouldn't be a crutch to compensate for sloppy tool setting. Really you can, and should, aim for a perfect fit right from the machine.

Good luck!

 

[heimlaga]

This is my setup. For short tennons I use two separate tennoning heads but for long tennons I put a pair of flanges on the spindle and use a 300mm diametre cirkular saw blade. There are tennoning heads in diametres up to 300mm but those require a removable support bearing at the top of the spindle. Otherwise the spindle may break. Unfortunately I did not include a support bearing in the design when I built the tennoning hood. Next time.............But then I will also have to order a longer spindle whose top will fit the bearing.
Note the front goard and the opening at the back that fits against the dust hood. There is a depth stop on the right side which is used to set tennon lenght.

The front guard is very important because one can hardly see the heads rotating. Be VERY CAREFUL as spare fingers of decent quality are totally unobtainable and you only have 10 of them.

 

[aebersold]

Thanks Custard that's very helpful. It seems that each method has it's own limitations and thanks for pointing them out as well as the tips on safety. I am particularly encouraged by your confidence in producing the shoulder cuts directly from the machine. Again, thanks for your kind efforts.

 

[ColeyS1]

Are these what you mean by adjustable groover ?

If ive got large tongues and grooves to do I just flip one over

I cant see why it wouldn't work so longs you had the correct guarding and table in place. I think a groover would be more useful than a pair of dedicated tenon cutters- not saying its the safest ;-)
If you did go the groover route you'd just need to make sure you have enough suitable spacers (with holes in) so you can get the nut and other spacer washers on- cant really describe what I mean but the pins that lock the cutters in place get in the way if trying to use normal spacers. Best of luck which ever method you choose

 

[aebersold]

Thanks for your response and good pictures Heimlaga, you have yet another interesting method/set up for cutting tenons. I like your home made guard, looks impressive and glad to see there is no blood evident but those cutters would scare me to death ! The saw blade method is interesting in that it could be used just for the larger less frequent tenons.

 

[aebersold]

Hello Coley, thanks for your help. This is the cutter I had in mind which can cope with quite deep tenons when needed even though not often. Of course, the shoulder size would be limited but I thought finishing by hand with radial arm and shoulder plane would solve the issue and give nice clean results but after reading advice from the guys above I may think again.

Hey sorry, I haven't worked out how to transfer images from web to this site !


http://www.felder-tooling.co.uk/8head-0 ... 07210.html

 

[heimlaga]

That cutter head makes sence to me even though I have never used one. At times when I have had to cut slots in end grain that do not match the width of my cutter heads I have used a wobble saw. It worked surprisingly well but that kind of head seems even better because the wobble saw is very difficult to set up. That head is very expensive though.

For tennon shoulders that exceed the cutter width or tennons that are cut with the saw blade I simply use the sliding table of the table saw. I clamp the short fence attachment to the fence to prevent the offcuts from getting caught between the blade and the fence and then I set the blade height to fit the shoulder depth and the distance from the outside of the saw blade to the short fence attachment to fit the lenght of the tenon. Then I can make repeated cuts produsing similar tennons. I have an overarm guard on the saw and I made my riving knives short enough to not protrude above the highest point of the saw blade.
Many newer saws have an aluminium fence rail that can be slid back to prevent the offcuts from getting caught so then there is no need for a short fence attachment and the normal fence can be used in backed off position.

 

[ColeyS1]

That felder picture you linked to is the same type of thing we use for grooving except a slightly bigger diameter. The felder prices seem quite pricey though ? :shock: if you get a thicker groover you'd be able to spindle off more of the shoulders
Edit : apologies, just reread your post and you're already thinking bigger is better :lol: one last thing. Might be worth seeing if leuco can offer the same size. Im fairly confident they'd be cheaper

 

[custard]

Thanks Custard that's very helpful. It seems that each method has it's own limitations and thanks for pointing them out as well as the tips on safety. I am particularly encouraged by your confidence in producing the shoulder cuts directly from the machine. Again, thanks for your kind efforts.

I'd hate to sound too prescriptive, my way works for me with the woods I use and the type of things I make. But there's always alternatives that might work better in other applications.

For example, I aim to produce a final tenon straight from the spindle moulder. But Robert Ingham, who also uses a Felder Combi, cuts his tenons 0.5mm oversize on a bandsaw and then finishes them on a router table. I do seem to recall though that he says this method is only best for centred tenons on a dead accurate router table with a sliding table. I also believe that he has almost no tooling for his spindle moulder, and mainly advocates Felder for the precision of the planer/thicknesser and the saw table.