Sharpening for the masses..

[kayak23]

Make up four honing registration blocks (like small bench hooks), two at 25deg and two at 30deg and make each pair identical. Use the 25deg blocks with a very coarse DMT and a VMkII honing guide for prepartion of the primary and do the same with the 30reg block, another VMKII and an Extra Fine DMT (the green one) so now you have two honing stations, one for the primary bevel and one for the honed bevel. Total expenditure is then four DMT's and four VMKII's, giving two sharpening guides per station...............................

Thanks Rob. We already use two honing stations but stick to one grind/honing angle.

What I found was that students would steepen the angle to 30 degrees to just grind the edge, then another student the following day perhaps would find that they had to spend 'ages' honing to get a new and fresh edge. What tended to happen was that they would simply increase the angle further and thereby get a new edge, however at steadily steepening angles, which I then had to grind back.

The idea was that we would continue to teach the idea that a lot of woodworkers use primary and secondary angles when sharpening but only in theory lessons. In practical we would just use one angle, explaining why this was done. It had vastly improved the general state of the chisels found in the rack but as always, more could be done.

I am liking the look of the Veritas MkII and think it would work very well. However, with it being in two parts, that must be fitted together to certain marks I can see it being almost TOO adjustable and that there may be too much scope still for getting it wrong still.
Adjustments for steep angles, short blades, back bevels, eccentric roller adjustment.......I can just imagine a few getting a bit confused and sadly not asking what to do but diving in regardless and sharpening incorrectly.

The Dakota on the other hand looks a lot more simple, I think a road test is in order!

 

[barkwindjammer]

The barber wouldn't leave his 'smiley' til the end of his shift to freshen it up, probably 6 or so 'gliding' swipes on the strop during one shave, your students will be itching to grind the bevel edge-forbid them to do this, as the weeks progress introduce the 'theory' stuff, angles, types of stone, grits etc, as the time passes you will have identified the 'keenies' and the 'chimps', take them on a journey with it then allow the 'keenies' to tackle the bevel while the 'chimps' watch, treat the whole episode like your training 'Samurai', instill in them respect for the edge.

 

[woodbloke]

The Dakota on the other hand looks a lot more simple, I think a road test is in order!

i've no experience of the Dakota, but would agree that in a situation like the one you find yourself in...'simple' is always going to be best :wink: - Rob

 

[bugbear]

I've been looking at that Dakota guide but can't see that there is any way that you set up a repeatable projection or angle on it. Does it work on projection from the body?
I guess a simple angled wedge could be made to rest the blade on while its fitted into the guide perhaps...

Big problem - since it runs on the bench, all your stones have to be the same thickness, or the effective angle changes for each use. Probably OK for someone using a set of diamond stones (from the same manufacturer) or abrasive papers.

I have to admit to finding barkwindjammers method even obviously useful than Grim's; if the cutting edge of the blade has been worn/rounded to some (small, obviously) radius or other, you're going to have to remove a layer roughly whose thickness (roughly) corresponds to that radius.

I'd rather remove a thou (or a half thou) from a tiny secondary bevel than the entire flat side.

All the dimensions in the diagram are exaggerated for expository reasons.

BugBear

 

[LuptonM]

Just wondering, where exactly is this course held?

 

[Jacob]

......
Things have improved slightly recently as we have gone from the old days of freehand-sharpening and then re-grinds on an abrasive wheel all too often, to the use of the Tormek system and the Eclipse-type honing guides to hone blades inbetween use.

I just wondered in what way things have improved, as they don't seem too good as it is!

We also used to practise a primary bevel angle of 25 degrees on our chisels and then a honing angle of 30 degrees. I believe this used to confuse students and the chisels were always a huge mess so I suggested sticking to a single angle of 25 degrees all the way,.....

A single bevel at 25º is really difficult to keep sharp. 25/30º is the standard which has worked for generations of woodworkers including beginners doing it freehand.
You mention "downtime" at some point but sharpening isn't downtime any more than time spent planing is. It's an essential part of the process. It has to be taught as an essential skill, no matter how long it takes. If they can't do it either they are on the wrong course or it's the teacher's fault.

PS The eclipse jig is as good (bad) as any. I don't see the other jig variations as a solution, in fact they are the problem.
Back to basics! Teach them to sharpen! They only need the one angle (the grinding angle is "the same but a bit less"). Get them going on visualising 30º - it's a third of a rt angle, half of an equilateral triangle angle etc. Make them draw it freehand, hold their arms up at 30º (or praps not :roll: ) etc. etc.

 

[woodbloke]

I have to admit to finding barkwindjammers method even obviously useful than Grim's; if the cutting edge of the blade has been worn/rounded to some (small, obviously) radius or other, you're going to have to remove a layer roughly whose thickness (roughly) corresponds to that radius.

I'd rather remove a thou (or a half thou) from a tiny secondary bevel than the entire flat side.

All the dimensions in the diagram are exaggerated for expository reasons.

BugBear

BJW's method does have it's points, but I have to agree with BB on this one. There's also the danger with BJW's method in that students may tend to lift the handle (to speed the process) on a chisel and not keep it dead flat on the stone - Rob

 

[GazPal]

Group sharpening sessions seldom work, but one to one sessions during which one or two pupils are taught the correct grinding and honing methods tend to be much more successful. The reason being the teachers ability to focus upon a students particular needs without running the risk of skimming past individuals who may/may not absorb information as quickly as others. Working with a table/bench top presenter as a teaching aid works well and you're better able to impress fundamental methods and reasoning without having to re-dress the topic of fudged up irons/chisel blades as often.

Try printing out an accurately sized profile for grinding and honing angles, then provide a laminated copy for each student to keep with his/her notes. The grind profile is also typically found impressed on cap irons and easily copied when gauging the side profile of a blade to it's outline.

Keep grinding stations separate to honing stations and never mix the two until a pupil is familiar with each process. The same can be said of honing jigs..... Keep a student to one particular type until he/she has mastered it and only then move onto another jig type.

I don't know why so many have a problem with the use of freehand honing when adding a secondary bevel to a primary grind, but can understand the need for jigs if working an edge to a single flat whetted bevel.

 

[andersonec]

How many students do you have in one session?
My way would be to do away with the jigs etc. at the start and teach them freehand, E.D.I. (explanation, demonstration, imitation) 10 students done in half hour.
They do not get to use guides etc. until they can show they have grasped the concept of sharp tools.

 

[No skills]

For the more 'interested' students of what ever age could you encourage the purchase of a cheap set of chisels and something to sharpen them with? if only a quarter of the students took this on there should be less wear and tear on the shop chisels and also encourage the students to learn good sharpening practice which they can then apply to the plane blades etc

Having there own sharp chisels to hand would speed up their work rather than waiting for the use of a shop tool that could possably need sharpening before they can use it. Sharpening homework perhaps

I wont comment on methods of sharpening because what I know about it could be written on the back on a stamp

For the cost of say £20-25 for the students it seems a cheap way to help themselves on their course.

JMO

 

[Jacob]

....
I don't know why so many have a problem with the use of freehand honing when adding a secondary bevel to a primary grind, .....

I don't think they get that far - they just bleat pathetically that it's too difficult. :roll:
The few brave souls who have a go soon find that it's pineapple easy.

My way would be to do away with the jigs etc. at the start and teach them freehand, E.D.I. (explanation, demonstration, imitation) 10 students done in half hour.
They do not get to use guides etc. until they can ...

Good idea.

encourage the purchase of a cheap set of chisels and something to sharpen them with.... encourage the students to learn good sharpening practice ...

Good idea. Don't have to be cheap though - it'll take many years to wear down a chisel or plane blade if you do it mostly freehand.

Not sure where BB's blue suppositories fit in. :shock:

 

[kayak23]

You mention "downtime" at some point but sharpening isn't downtime any more than time spent planing is. It's an essential part of the process. It has to be taught as an essential skill, no matter how long it takes. If they can't do it either they are on the wrong course or it's the teacher's fault.

Yes, I meant MY downtime. Time I have to spend reviving knackered tools which could be spent helping students more or maintaining machinery etc, etc, etc....

Of course sharpening is an important part of the process, its the very first thing we go through. we also teach care of the blades once sharpened, how they place them on the bench while resting, periodic honing, everything. I am not suggesting for a minute that sharpening is anything but essential.

As I said, what I am aiming to minimise as much as possible, is the time spent by a student getting their chisels up to standard when they may have been misused the day before. If everyone does the same thing, then that time is drastically reduced, and it in no way lessens the emphasis we place on the importance of sharp and well looked after tools.

A 2nd year student may sharpen a range of chisels on a Monday for use then put them back at the end of the day. A 1st year might come in Tuesday and use those same chisels and hone them badly then put them back at the end of the day. Then, that 2nd year is in again Wednesday and has to waste time preparing the chisels again that they already prepared previously.....You see what the issue is?

The issue can be solved by;

A- Each student having their own tools - (not going to happen, too much initial outlay we know from experience)

B - We have a simple, reliable and repeatable system in place which results in less time spent 'restoring' badly sharpened chisels.

With the best will in the world, with 25 or so students in a busy, noisy workshop, many chopping joints, some on machinery, some drawing and 2 staff, you just cant watch every single student every time they hone and don't forget we have over 70 beginners pass through the workshops in a busy week whether on full time, part time or evening leisure courses.
With experience of the evening classes I used to teach, many attendees are sadly just not interested in doing things with meticulous attention to detail. They want quick results and usually ask what is the quickest way of doing something, instead of what is the BEST way... Thats just the way it is I'm afraid, as frustrating as it is, and that is why I want to further simplify the process. The steps I've made already have greatly reduced wasted time, but there is always room for improvement.

 

[woodbloke]

PM sent - Rob

 

[Jacob]

What's Rob being so secretive about I wonder? :lol:

The course I did many years ago involved shared tools for the first 5 weeks or so after which you got your own. The sharpening meant often having to remedy someone else's crude efforts. But this was regarded as a good exercise and all part of learning how to do it.
Basically you ended up doing a helluva lot of sharpening in those first few weeks! All freehand of course - no better way for a learner. Every day each chisel or plane you wanted to use had to be sharpened first, unless you were lucky and had picked up a sharp one (if you could tell the difference!).
Maybe you should do the same - put much more emphasis on it and turn it to advantage, rather than seeing it as a problem?
You have 70 people turning up every week who need sharp tools. You have 70 people ditto who desperately need to earn how to sharpen. Bobs yer oncle! 2 birds with one stone. Or a handful of double sided oil stones at least.

 

[Jacob]

Another thought (sorry!) is that all the methods discussed so far are most definitely not "Sharpening for the masses".
Freehand with oil-stones has to be each man for himself. But it's the same with jigs, Tormeks etc. These are used by small shops usually one man bands, and amateurs, and don't greatly increase productivity, if at all.
A serious saw doctoring sharpening woodwork machinery specialist works would have some very good semi automatic machinery for almost everything. You would be unlikely to find a veritas Mk 3 on the premises. Or a scary sharp corner. Or a tin of honerite no1. :roll:
So maybe you need to machine up a good few notches. If not then machine down to freehand with oil stones and get the masses doing their own sharpening.

 

[EddieJ]

Maybe you should do the same - put much more emphasis on it and turn it to advantage, rather than seeing it as a problem?

We had to sharpen at the end of each session. Each chisel was checked by the tutor, and you either suffered lost marks and or detention for incorrect tool maintenance. It wasn't unusual for the tutor to throw a blackboard rubber at anyone who had messed up, and on one occasion the tutor threw a chisel at someone when he found it blunt.
Heaven forbid that you ever dropped a chisel or used it incorrectly. The consequence for this was a very hard slap around the head from behind, followed by detention and lost marks.

Sadly those days of strict instruction and discipline are now long gone.

My daughter was using a spoke shave almost before she could walk, and used to sand, plane and shape wood all of the time. She is now 12yrs old, and I was all set to go right off into one on her tech teacher for allowing her to bring home a finished article that would have been put in the bin when I was at school.
The teacher redeemed himself though, when the very next day I went to look at my Lee Valley catalogue, and written on a post it on the outside was note from my daughter which read "This is bad, these planes are flat and are resting on their blades! Terrible!!" If you have seen the LV catalogue the front cover has a vast collection of wood planes on the front cover, which she quite rightly picked up on. The teacher must have done something right for her to have picked up on this.

Kayak, if you have one available, another solution which might be worth trying, is to get each student at the end of the session to simply use a bench grinder fitted with a buffing wheel, along with 'white' polish to buff the edge. It may give enough reprieve to lengthen the time between the grinding/honing requirements, and would be far quicker.
I earn my living using chisels on a daily basis, and this works well enough for me in that I only need to do it once a week, and each chisel from the smallest to my 100mm framing chisels, will shave the hair from your arms with ease. It could be worth a go.

I also wouldn't hesitate marking down and punishing anyone that screwed up. Remember that you are there to teach, not be their friend. :wink: They will respect you for it eventually.

Finally, in respect of my old woodwork teacher. He ruled with a rod of military iron and we weren't even allowed to breathe without permission. I owe that teacher a hell of alot, and respect everything that he did for us. Reward was few and far between, but when it was given, you knew that you deserved it.
Oddly, a couple of days ago, I bought a 1947 copy of Creative Woodwork For Students And Teachers, by W.E. James J.H. Dixon. I now know where most of his ideas came from, and would highly recommend this interesting book to anyone.

 

[Mike Wingate]

I am a technology teacher (old school) and have recently upgraded my sharpening system. I use an old Eclipse guide, an older Stanley and a modern Dakota bought cheaply from Axminster. I sit a Wixey digital angle gauge on the blade for quick angle set up. I use a Tormel then 4 EzeLap 8 x 3 diamond stones and an 8 x 3 Ceramic stone followed by strops loaded with chromium oxide and Flixicut gold. The results are great, the wood tells me this, my shaved arms and a digital microscope confirm that the blades are sharp. A plane is only a blade holder, they are in good shape. Knives, chisels et al are sharpened this way.

 

[Modernist]

50 years ago our school used a horizontal whetstone grinder (sharpenset?) to speed up the process

I doubt if repeated blows to the head would have improved our woodwork at all :roll: :roll:

 

[SurreyHills]

I think that one way that you can improve the system is to make the students accountable, once they know they are being monitored their approach to sharpening will improve. Given the number of students and unless you increase the number of sharpening stations you can't cope with having everyone sharpen at the end of each day.

So I think that you shoudl look at some form of booking out/int system for sets of tools. Then you might be able to work out who is responsible for poorly sharpened tools at the end of each session. If it's the same culprits each time then some remedial tuition should help. Alternatively if you can't identify the culprits then some form of collective "punishment" might get them to sort out the situation for themselves. Suitable punishments might be a mass tidy up - sweeping the floors, cleaning machines etc.

 

[Jacob]

I am a technology teacher (old school) and have recently upgraded my sharpening system. I use an old Eclipse guide, an older Stanley and a modern Dakota bought cheaply from Axminster. I sit a Wixey digital angle gauge on the blade for quick angle set up. I use a Tormel then 4 EzeLap 8 x 3 diamond stones and an 8 x 3 Ceramic stone followed by strops loaded with chromium oxide and Flixicut gold. The results are great, the wood tells me this, my shaved arms and a digital microscope confirm that the blades are sharp. A plane is only a blade holder, they are in good shape. Knives, chisels et al are sharpened this way.

I've gone the other way - back to basics; one double sided oil stone plus a finer one, one belt sander (Sorby pro edge but an ordinary belt sander will do). One angle; 30º, or a bit less for grinding. Keep it simple!

NB the Pro edge works OK but still requires a degree of hand and eye coordination, so isn't the answer for those who want to avoid it.
I suppose what everybody wants is something like an electric pencil sharpener - you just poke it in and it comes out sharp.