Shapton Glass or DMT. Anyone experience either stone?

[Michelle_K]

I posted on here a while ago about sharpening. I currently use wet and dry sandpaper to sharpen and I hate it. The paper tears all of the time and creases up and originally I was questioning whether the Method of sharpening makes a difference. As I find that even though I can get a razor sharp edge using sandpaper. It really doesn't last very long. And I wasn't sure if it was the chisels (lidl chisels) which I know people have raved about or the sandpaper not being reliable enough in the way of scratch patten. Most people didn't seem to think it made much of a difference.
Anyway I have been saving hard and can finally afford my first stone and I am torn on which to go for. Eventually I will hopefully get a set but for now I am going with a 120 grit either shapton glass or dmt. I have done hours of research on both stones and I have been drawn to the Shapton stones but the idea of not having to flatten the dmt stones is equally as tempting. I tried waterstones once and absolutely hated the experience. Flattening every five minutes taking forever to get a cloudy polish. Not a fan! At college we have diamond stones that are over 15 years old and have been used and abused by students just learning to sharpen and they still work which shows their durability. I know that Shaptons would eventually wearout but they cut so fast as well only downside being they still need to be flattened and to do so I would just be using sandpaper as that shapton dressing stone is £240 or something which would get me quite a few stones. And I am not sure if flattening with sandpaper would damage the stone.
Has anybody used both? What are people's experiences?
I am going for 120grit first as I get old and rusty tools and trying to flatten a back on sandpaper is no fun so hoped a 120 shapton or dmt would make light work.

Lastly does anyone know any good sources for the stones in the UK.

Thanks everyone

Michelle

 

[custard]

I try and stay away from sharpening threads but I hate to see someone waste their money.

I use Shapton stones, I like them but they do need a lot of flattening, if you don't like water stones you probably won't like Shapton stones. Plus the way to flatten them quickly and efficiently is with a very large and uber expensive diamond stone! Bottom line is they're not a cheap or even a particularly good value sharpening option, their biggest advantage is consistency and that they don't need pre soaking. Furthermore, even though I've got coarse Shapton grits I rarely use them, for coarse grit work I tend to use diamond stones or sandpaper.

I hear what you say about the mind numbing tedium of fettling tools, but personally I think sandpaper is often the optimum solution. Maybe before spending a lot of money you could consider why your paper is tearing (mine does too, but not often) and try and address that first? There's a tendency with unpleasant or arduous woodworking tasks to think that a silver bullet solution must exist somewhere and the that the grass must be greener with another method, any other method! In practise I've rarely found that to be true.

Good luck

 

[morturn]

Have you looked into the ‘scary sharp’ system? This is relatively cheap to set up, and you get a range of grit sizes.

It may not be right for everyone, if you are a pro, it may not be cost effective, but for the keen novice, it’s a great way to get good results.

 

[DrD]

I struggle to see how the sharpening method would affect edge retention. I'd be thinking about the sharpening angle and the steel hardness.

On the sharpening stone thing, any reason you don't like Norton oilstones? £25 gets you a double sided coarse/fine, which is something like 60/600 grit (although that doesn't translate perfectly to waterstone grits) and unlike waterstones, oilstones are very tough and take ages to wear.

 

[bugbear]

Have you looked into the ‘scary sharp’ system? This is relatively cheap to set up, and you get a range of grit sizes.

The OP said "... I can get a razor sharp edge using sandpaper ... " so, yes.

BugBear

 

[Michelle_K]

I did try the 3m scary sharp films. I did a lot of research and upon asking people who used them was told that a set of sheets could last up to four months. So I got some and had trouble with them. Totally my fault granted but items an expensive lesson at £3.49 a sheet. The sheets became unstuck from the glass very quickly and began curling and the. The abrasive scraped off of them. Initially I didn't realise you could only pull on the sheets. After that I decided it wasn't for me.
I think some of the tearing on my sandpaper may be that I sometimes wet it too much. But the creasing is random!

 

[sundaytrucker]

I did try the 3m scary sharp films. I did a lot of research and upon asking people who used them was told that a set of sheets could last up to four months. So I got some and had trouble with them. Totally my fault granted but items an expensive lesson at £3.49 a sheet. The sheets became unstuck from the glass very quickly and began curling and the. The abrasive scraped off of them. Initially I didn't realise you could only pull on the sheets. After that I decided it wasn't for me.
I think some of the tearing on my sandpaper may be that I sometimes wet it too much. But the creasing is random!

I have used scary sharp for the past eleven months and have never only used a pull stroke on the abrasive, even with a 3mm chisel on the 3micron film I risk it and push/pull and have yet to tear the paper. I have also never had the 3M paper come unstuck using Shield technology 'stuff' or just a spritz of water.

I am also looking at a more long term solution having previously tried diamond stones (ezelap on the recommendation of Paul Sellers) which I found the course grit quickly lost it's cutting ability and have considered the Sharpton Stones.

 

[deema]

I have a set if these, they are simply brilliant.

http://www.its.co.uk/pd/210062-Ultex-8- ... 210062.htm

IMO every bit as good as the DMT, I git the combination stones, so for about £50 you can get a full set. Had them user a year and they are as good as new. I know a few people on here have also bought them and it was on the strength of their experience I bought a set. They seem to be on offer again.

 

[ED65]

even though I can get a razor sharp edge using sandpaper. It really doesn't last very long.

Well let's start with this. To take you back to Sharpness 101, edge retention is a function of numerous factors all working in concert.

Let's take the quality of the steel out of the equation for the moment and just assume chisels of equal standard. The fineness of the edge, the honing angle, the material being cut (hardness and abrasiveness) and whether they're being pushed or struck all play their roles in how quickly their edges will dull. You don't need to be doing anything wrong and there doesn't need to be anything off with the kit for edges to dull quickly, which is the reason carvers keep a strop right by their elbow.

And I wasn't sure if it was the chisels (lidl chisels) which I know people have raved about or the sandpaper not being reliable enough in the way of scratch patten.

It shouldn't be the scratch pattern, abrasive papers are capable of producing some of the best edges possible. Even cheaper stuff (less consistent) should be adequate.

I don't think it likely but it might be the chisels. Cheaper products like this aren't completely consistent and there's always the chance of buying a lemon. But seeing as this is a set and not just a plane with a single iron they were not all hardened at the same time, possibly not even on the same day or in the same batch.

I suppose I should have asked this to begin with, what's your definition of "doesn't last every long"? Try to estimate this not in terms of days since the last honing, but the time they're actually working the wood.

Anyway I have been saving hard and can finally afford my first stone and I am torn on which to go for. Eventually I will hopefully get a set but for now I am going with a 120 grit either shapton glass or dmt.

Everyone and their dog has an opinion on sharpening gear but if I were you I would save most of the money you've earmarked for the Shapton or DMT and not get anything expensive. There is no end of things we can spend money on in the arena of sharpening and to be frank, nearly any price can be justified by a given rationale. I think though that they should all be compared like-for-like with cheaper alternatives or you can be throwing away money needlessly.

Unfortunately we have to ignore secondhand stuff from car boots for now and assume buying new, you can sharpen very effectively spending about £20-30. That's to cover the whole process, soup to nuts. The kit you'd end up with would work well enough that you might not ever feel the need to change it, except for the grass-is-always-greener temptations

I am going for 120grit first as I get old and rusty tools and trying to flatten a back on sandpaper is no fun so hoped a 120 shapton or dmt would make light work.

In case you hadn't read this previously, only a small portion of the flat of a chisel actually needs to be dead flat. It is a huge weight lifted and a massive time-saver when you let go and no longer strive to get the full length of a chisel flat! Work just near the tip, but actually aim for only a very narrow strip right behind the cutting edge to end up perfectly flat and shiny. As little as 1-3mm is fine.

I'm a big fan of diamonds for removing metal quickly by hand but for really major work I would recommend you get either a roll of 60 or 80 grit aluminium oxide paper, or a coarse silicon carbide stone, neither one of which should cost you much more than a fiver.