Pope's Visit - cost

[Digit]

That's a nice story Mike C and one we here too little about. The main reason is the fact that Muslims and Jews tend to live in tight communities.
I had a row with a Frum Jewish man some years ago on that very basis. He worked for a Jewish company, he lived in a Jewish community, he was married to a Jewish girl, his two children went to a Jewish school and I noticed that his car had been purchased from a Jewish company in Golder's Green.
As far as I could ascertain his children never met non Jewish children.
My upbringing would have been the same had I not resisted, and when I 'married out' most of my family disowned me.
I cannot believe this is the way to live!

Roy.

 

[Mike.C]

That's a nice story Mike C and one we here too little about. The main reason is the fact that Muslims and Jews tend to live in tight communities.
I had a row with a Frum Jewish man some years ago on that very basis. He worked for a Jewish company, he lived in a Jewish community, he was married to a Jewish girl, his two children went to a Jewish school and I noticed that his car had been purchased from a Jewish company in Golder's Green.
As far as I could ascertain his children never met non Jewish children.
My upbringing would have been the same had I not resisted, and when I 'married out' most of my family disowned me.
I cannot believe this is the way to live!

Roy.

Thanks Roy, they are a smashing family, as are all the other family members and friends that they have introduced me to.

As for your wife and yourself, when you think about what has happened to the Jewish race over the years you would have thought that they would be the last to show racial prejudice, but this is clearly not the case when it comes to some members of your family. And if you yourself had not told me, I would have doubted that the Jewish community as a whole are purposely going out of their way not to do business, mix with, or even marry outside their race.

Its a sad sad world when your family will not talk to you just because you fell in love with someone who was not of their faith.

Cheers

Mike

 

[Digit]

Many Jews, like myself Mike are not strict orthodox, but those that are, that I have met, are as extreme as any Muslim or Christian.
My nephew was down to be a doctor, not because he wanted to be, but because the family said so!
The outrageous thing was that he never questioned it, till he got to university, when he realised that he had a mind of his own.
He took a girl back home from uni to meet his father, not his mother, not her business of course! :lol: when dad realised she was not of the faith the boy was forbidden to see her.
On his 21st birthday dad got a message, Married!'
That girl was never allowed to meet any of the family, till the day she announced that she was pregnant.
Then of course the family started to arrange the child's upbringing, future schooling, you get the picture I guess.
You don't marry a strict orthodox Jew, you marry their family!
My apprenticeship was arranged for me through the family, naturally at a Jewish owned company!

Roy.

 

[Dibs-h]

My nephew was down to be a doctor, not because he wanted to be, but because the family said so!

That sounds like a proper Indian\Pakistani (usually Muslim as well) family. :wink:

A line from Russell Peters (if you like Goodness Gracious me - you'll love him) springs to mind - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaNHO1mvCiE

 

[Digit]

As I have commented before Dibs, there is little between Strict Judaism or Islam. I have nothing against any religious creed, but I have very definite disagreements with the manner in which some will practise those creeds.
The 'Traditional' Muslim dress code for women has nothing to do with Islam any more than the Orthodox Jews male dress is 'Jewish'.
Both religions are fine by me, the culture that has sometime been attached to those beliefs is oft times very different.

Roy.

 

[Dibs-h]

As I have commented before Dibs, there is little between Strict Judaism or Islam. I have nothing against any religious creed, but I have very definite disagreements with the manner in which some will practise those creeds.
The 'Traditional' Muslim dress code for women has nothing to do with Islam any more than the Orthodox Jews male dress is 'Jewish'.
Both religions are fine by me, the culture that has sometime been attached to those beliefs is oft times very different.

Roy.

In your earlier post - you used the word "frum" which I had never seen before - so curiosity got the better of me and before 2 long I was looking up Halakhah, 613 Mitzvot , eta al - and yes (as you say) there is so little between them. I was rather surprised to come across the Laws of Negiah and there are Muslims who behave in exactly the same manner.

Been an interesting read.

Yes cultural BS doesn't half get touted as religion sometimes. :x

 

[MikeG.]

As an aside, and goodness knows how we have got to discussing this, there has been a good deal of genetic testing of various populations in the last few years. One of the many interesting observations is that Jewish Israelis of middle eastern origin are utterly indistinguishable from Palestinians, genetically.

Mike

 

[Mike.C]

Many Jews, like myself Mike are not strict orthodox, but those that are, that I have met, are as extreme as any Muslim or Christian.
My nephew was down to be a doctor, not because he wanted to be, but because the family said so!
The outrageous thing was that he never questioned it, till he got to university, when he realised that he had a mind of his own.
He took a girl back home from uni to meet his father, not his mother, not her business of course! :lol: when dad realised she was not of the faith the boy was forbidden to see her.
On his 21st birthday dad got a message, Married!'
That girl was never allowed to meet any of the family, till the day she announced that she was pregnant.
Then of course the family started to arrange the child's upbringing, future schooling, you get the picture I guess.
You don't marry a strict orthodox Jew, you marry their family!
My apprenticeship was arranged for me through the family, naturally at a Jewish owned company!

Roy.

Ah so it is the orthodox that makes the difference. That reminds me of the Ross Kemp show that I watched a couple of weeks ago. It was about the troubles between Israel and Palestine, but it also touched on the (for want of a better word) feued between ultra-orthodox Jews and secular Jews. apparently some of them are really fanatical and mistrust everyone most of all the Zionist goverment and Police.

Cheers

Mike

 

[Digit]

Mike and Mike. Genetically there is absolutely no major difference between Sephardic Jews and Palestinians, strangely, they are both Semites!
World wide most Jews are, like me, Ashkenasi, our origins are central European, not Semitic.
Ultra Orthodox Jews in Israel don't even recognise the state of Israel and refuse to pay taxes to the state!
The only difference between militant Judaism and Palestinian militants is the calibre of the bullet!

Roy.

 

[big soft moose]

As I have commented before Dibs, there is little between Strict Judaism or Islam. I have nothing against any religious creed, but I have very definite disagreements with the manner in which some will practise those creeds.
The 'Traditional' Muslim dress code for women has nothing to do with Islam any more than the Orthodox Jews male dress is 'Jewish'.
Both religions are fine by me, the culture that has sometime been attached to those beliefs is oft times very different.

Roy.

In your earlier post - you used the word "frum" which I had never seen before - so curiosity got the better of me and before 2 long I was looking up Halakhah, 613 Mitzvot , eta al - and yes (as you say) there is so little between them. I was rather surprised to come across the Laws of Negiah and there are Muslims who behave in exactly the same manner.

Been an interesting read.

Yes cultural BS doesn't half get touted as religion sometimes. :x

thats not entirely suprising because islam, judaism and christianity are all "people of the book" and the texts of the old testament are used in all three, and other jewish texts are used in islam.

muslims believe that the god worshiped by all "people of the book " is one and the same but that only they worship Him correctly - they also recognise the existence of jesus but see him as a misguided proffet who was unable to interpret the true word of allah, rather than actually being the son of god. ( and for any religious scholars out there - yes i know that this is grossly over simplified)

 

[big soft moose]

World wide most Jews are, like me, Ashkenasi, our origins are central European, not Semitic.
.

that said correct me if i'm wrong but arent all jews supposed to have originated from the 12 tribes of israel originally - then dispersed across europe, mesopotamia, and africa. so although your origins are european, in theory (if not in practice) your very far back decendants should have been genetically semitic ?

 

[Digit]

I'm trying to get some work done here! :lol:
BSM. The twelve tribes is a bit tale, this should explain...
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/juda ... Tribes.htm
.. but no, Ashkenasi origins are central European or Asian.
Recent genetic studies suggest perhaps even northern Afghanistan, the study shows that Jewish people moved north during the Diaspora and settled in central Asia, where they both multiplied and converted the local people.
Years later they were hired by the Czars as mercenaries and from there they spread into Europe and eventually the New World.

Roy.

 

[StevieB]

Sorry guys and gals, but genetically you are all Human and have African origins. Pre African origins you start to get into different species. Any 'origin' mentioned that is not African is simply a result of Human migration and not an origin in any 'starting' sense. Anything else is simply splitting heirs

There is more genetic variation between East and West African populations than between any other human populations on earth for the simple reason than Man was in Africa for so long before migrating out. Genetic changes or genetic drift takes an incredibly long time to occur in any meaningful sense, but we tend to forget this in the modern world where travel is now so easy.

I am no expert on religion, being a complete atheist, but as with anything that originates and is transmitted by word of mouth, the initial meanings and teachings are unlikely to have survived unaltered. I have not come across a religion yet that explains the world better than science does, and until I do then I will never be able to make the 'leap of faith' that such belief systems require. As we get a better understanding of genetics, evolution and speciation so science increasingly offers the only rational system of explaining the world around us - to me at least. I have no problem with those that can make the leap of faith and truly believe, its when they try and convince me that I need to do the same that I get annoyed!

Steve

 

[big soft moose]

, its when they try and convince me that I need to do the same that I get annoyed!

Steve

i think it was oscar wilde who said that there was one very good reason to belive in god rather than not , that being that if you believe and it turns out not be so then you are no worse off, but if you dont believe and you are wrong then you are in a lot of trouble

 

[StevieB]

But my way I get Sunday mornings free Religion is really afterlife insurance!

Steve

 

[Mike.C]

I'm trying to get some work done here! :lol:
BSM. The twelve tribes is a bit tale, this should explain...
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/juda ... Tribes.htm
.. but no, Ashkenasi origins are central European or Asian.
Recent genetic studies suggest perhaps even northern Afghanistan, the study shows that Jewish people moved north during the Diaspora and settled in central Asia, where they both multiplied and converted the local people.
Years later they were hired by the Czars as mercenaries and from there they spread into Europe and eventually the New World.

Roy.

Roy did you see that Ross Kemp program? The reason I ask is there was a Jewish woman (fanatic) who was screaming about taking all the hills and building on them, and that a few thousand years ago Joshua had stood on that very spot and proclaimed that "This land will belong to the chosen one's who are the Jews" and they were actually standing on Palestinian land. If you did see it is she what you would call an orthodox?

 

[Mike.C]

Sorry guys and gals, but genetically you are all Human and have African origins. Pre African origins you start to get into different species. Any 'origin' mentioned that is not African is simply a result of Human migration and not an origin in any 'starting' sense. Anything else is simply splitting heirs

There is more genetic variation between East and West African populations than between any other human populations on earth for the simple reason than Man was in Africa for so long before migrating out. Genetic changes or genetic drift takes an incredibly long time to occur in any meaningful sense, but we tend to forget this in the modern world where travel is now so easy.

I am no expert on religion, being a complete atheist, but as with anything that originates and is transmitted by word of mouth, the initial meanings and teachings are unlikely to have survived unaltered. I have not come across a religion yet that explains the world better than science does, and until I do then I will never be able to make the 'leap of faith' that such belief systems require. As we get a better understanding of genetics, evolution and speciation so science increasingly offers the only rational system of explaining the world around us - to me at least. I have no problem with those that can make the leap of faith and truly believe, its when they try and convince me that I need to do the same that I get annoyed!

Steve

Steve I am a catholic but I would not dream about trying to convert you or anyone else, especially if you got annoyed, because you might hit me :lol:
Seriously though if someone does not believe there is a god, they do not believe it, and all my chatting is not going to change their minds.

Cheers

Mike

 

[big soft moose]

I'm trying to get some work done here! :lol:
BSM. The twelve tribes is a bit tale, this should explain...
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/juda ... Tribes.htm
.. but no, Ashkenasi origins are central European or Asian.
Recent genetic studies suggest perhaps even northern Afghanistan, the study shows that Jewish people moved north during the Diaspora and settled in central Asia, where they both multiplied and converted the local people.
Years later they were hired by the Czars as mercenaries and from there they spread into Europe and eventually the New World.

Roy.

Roy did you see that Ross Kemp program? The reason I ask is there was a Jewish woman (fanatic) who was screaming about taking all the hills and building on them, and that a few thousand years ago Joshua had stood on that very spot and proclaimed that "This land will belong to the chosen one's who are the Jews" and they were actually standing on Palestinian land. If you did see it is she what you would call an orthodox?

shes what you'd call a nutcase extremist- not all orthodox jews are extremist nutcases and not all extremist nutcases are orthodox jews - you get them in every hue of the religious spectrum.

the whole palestinian land thing is a bit of a red herring imo, because factually speaking all of israel is palestian land - in that prior to big mistake no2 it was british palestine (and yes i know the jews may also have a historic right to it - thats a can of worms we dont want to open) - the current "palestinian territories" in israel dont actually belong to either the palestinians or the jews as they were taken from jordan and syria by israel at the close of the six day war - essentially as buffer zones. they have now been ceded to the palestinians but they are not technically part of palestine.

 

[Digit]

Probably extreme orthodox. Put it this way, if the man is dressed head to foot in black and is bearded I would consider him extreme orthodox.
Most Israelis are secular actually.
What the woman was screaming is correct from texts if you can identify what land is referred to in the Torah.
As with most religions many disputes are based on varying interpretations.
An example, I'm secular, my heritage is Jewish, quite strict. Many of my family and family friends are/were bearded. The men that is!
The wearing of a beard is from leviticus and varies from, 'thou shalt not strike the end of thy beard' to instructions about not cutting/shaving the edges/sides of your beard.
Some would leave it untouched, take your pick.
One thing I have never seen any Jew practise is the Jubilee year when you're supposed to dispose of all your worldly goods!
My main objection to strict Judaism and Islam is their treatment of women, they can say what they like but in my eyes they are considered as junior partners, they may be well loved, but the man is boss!

Roy.

 

[StevieB]

My main objection to strict Judaism and Islam is their treatment of women, they can say what they like but in my eyes they are considered as junior partners, they may be well loved, but the man is boss!

And how many female Christian disciples were there? And how many conversions to the Catholic church with the ordination of Female vicars?

Steve