Plane sharpening help please

[MIGNAL]

Double beveled knife. Had me confused for years. No matter how hard I tried I just couldn't get it to mount in my numerous honing guides. :?
They aren't the easiest to sharpen freehand yet I could do it blindfold now. Safely as well! Harder to sharpen than Chisels or Plane blades.

 

[Doug B]

No DVDs to buy ( yet. 8) . )

Yebbut I've got video function on me I-phone, another business venture me thinks :shock:

Cheers,

Doug.

 

[Corneel]

So, nobody can explain the contradiction? Well, of course it's just human nature. We are too convenient and we are very poor at long term thinking. When being confronted with a dull chisel the first time, most of us will do a half hearted attempt at freehand sharpening, find that we are not a natural talent and actually need to do some work and invest a bit of time to learn this inevitable skill. So we buy a jig and get around for a while. Until we want to sharpen something not fitting in the jig of course.

Of course, everybody puttering along in his own shop can do whatever he pleases, and spend all the money he likes on whatever toys he fancies. For woodworking teachers (and those who give advice on a forum) there is no excuse. You do your students a disfavour when you learn them to sharpen with a jig.

 

[MIGNAL]

Oddly enough even the jigs aren't very accurate. Well they are for certain blades but not for others. Which is probably why you get the very expensive jigs, an attempt to overcome the shortcomings of the cheaper types. But the expensive jigs have their problems too, so you end up with owning 3 or even 4 jigs to help cope with all the different blade/chisel sizes. Suddenly Jacobs £100 jig isn't far wrong. And you still can't sharpen a gouge, a knife, a spokeshave blade. In fact any blade that is small or happens to have an unusual angle. I can't even sharpen my block plane blade that came with my small woodie. It's too short to give me the correct angle when mounted in the jig!!! :roll:

 

[Jacob]

I think one of the secrets of freehand sharpening is developing a way of holding the plane blade securely so that you maintain the honing angle, so that the blade doesn't pivot up and down, rounding off the edge. Everybody develops a slightly different technique, so this may not be ideal for you, but I offer it for what it may be worth.

When gripping the plane iron, I support the bevel side of it (which is underneath as you hold it to sharpen it) lightly on my thumbs, and rest the top end of the blade in the webs between my thumbs and index fingers, then apply pressure to the upper (flat) surface of the blade with my index fingers. My thumbs and index fingers are just clear of the surface of the stone, so are about as close as I can get them to the cutting edge without dragging my fingers across the stone. Then I feel for the grinding bevel of the blade on the stone, settling the whole bevel in contact with the stone. Then raise it a couple of degrees so that only the cutting edge is in contact, and lock my wrists. Then, with pressure from my index fingers (and second fingers if the blade is wide enough), start honing by pivotting at my shoulders and elbows. My forearms stay horizontal, and parallel to the bench, and I take a firm stance with my feet, and keep my head still. This feels awkward at first, but with a little practice you relax and just stroke the blade up and down the stone. It quite quickly becomes second nature.

The real skill is ensuring that the blade you're honing can't pivot about the cutting edge on the stone, as that will round the very edge. It's OK to round the bevel BEHIND the cutting edge if you want to, but you must NEVER exceed your chosen honing angle right at the edge. Once you develop a technique that suits you to hold the blade so that it can't pivot above the honing angle, you've just about cracked freehand sharpening. You'll get better and better with practice.

There are a couple of ways to see if your finished edge is sharp, once you've honed and backed off the wire edge. On is to hold the edge up to the light, and look for a gleam of light along the edge. If there is one along the edge or part of it, that's light reflecting off a rounded edge, and the blade isn't sharp. If there's no gleam of light, there's no rounding, and the edge is sharp. Another test is to (gently!) feel the edge with the ball of your thumb. If it catches your skin, it's sharp; if it slides over your skin, it isn't. Another is to rest the edge on your thumbnail. If it catches, it's sharp; if it slides, it isn't. Using one of these tests can tell you whether you need to do more work to the edge without having to reassemble the cap-iron, reset the blade in the plane and take a test cut.

After several honings, the sharpening bevel you create on the stone will start to get larger, so will take longer to bring back to sharp. You can either lightly regrind the primary bevel (I use a Tormek wetstone grinder, but some people use high-speed offhand grinders, or a very coarse grit sharpening stone) or slightly increase the honing angle. Obviously, there's a limit to how much you can increase the angle before regrinding becomes necessary, but it can help you finish a planing job without having to stop to regrind. It's not really best practice, though.

Keep on persisting with the freehand sharpening if you can get it to work for you; it's a handy skill. However, if you really can't get on with it, there's no shame in using a honing jig. The only 'shame' is in having to use tools that are not sharp enough!

I agree with much of this except I don't find holding the plane blade, chisel, etc such a problem. It's possible to be quite limp-wristed, even one handed (with a cup of tea in the other), as long as the angle is maintained visually. Non of this wrist locking - it's the eyeball which maintains the angle! But two hands is better because you can put more force into it. This is one of the main reasons freehand is faster.
And if you do round off the back of the bevel you can defer re-grinding indefinitely and the bevel never changes between honings/sharpenings.

 

[bugbear]

But do you use a jig to guide your smoothing plane over a panel?

I use a jig to guide a 2" wide chisel over a panel. I call it a "smoothing plane".

Presumably one could chisel the groove for a draw bottom, but I prefer to use a jig that control both the rate, position and depth of the cutting - I call it a "plough plane".

Woodworkers often use a when sawing to a line, when the cutting needs to be very accurate;

I (of course) sharpen many of my tools freehand - drawknife, gouges, in-cannel gouges, reeding planes.

But I enjoy the superior edge I get when I can bring the precision of a jig to bear; so I use a jig for chisels and bench plane blades.

BugBear

 

[MIGNAL]

Bugbear. If you get a superior edge using a jig it suggests that you haven't quite got the freehand method sorted. Practice! or use my technique, which is to use very short strokes on the stone. Short strokes means less arm movement, less to go 'wrong'.
You can slowly make your way up and down the stone if you want to wear the stone evenly.

 

[Corneel]

Bugbear. If you get a superior edge using a jig it suggests that you haven't quite got the freehand method sorted. Practice! or use my technique, which is to use very short strokes on the stone. Short strokes means less arm movement, less to go 'wrong'.
You can slowly make your way up and down the stone if you want to wear the stone evenly.

And it's better to practice now, on something easy like chisels and planeblades! When you need to use a gouge or drawknife, you want them to be razorsharp too, and can't fall back on the jig.

 

[woodbrains]

But do you use a jig to guide your smoothing plane over a panel?

I use a jig to guide a 2" wide chisel over a panel. I call it a "smoothing plane".

Presumably one could chisel the groove for a draw bottom, but I prefer to use a jig that control both the rate, position and depth of the cutting - I call it a "plough plane".

Woodworkers often use a when sawing to a line, when the cutting needs to be very accurate;

I (of course) sharpen many of my tools freehand - drawknife, gouges, in-cannel gouges, reeding planes.

But I enjoy the superior edge I get when I can bring the precision of a jig to bear; so I use a jig for chisels and bench plane blades.

BugBear

Hello,

Thoroughly agree! Also the shooting board, mitre trap, bench hook, router plane, mitre templates, donkeys ear......almost every woodworking task has some fitment or accessory to help us get a higher level of accuracy than hand and eye alone. Isn't Jacob's rotating, horizontal abrasive disc on which he roughly grinds edges 'freehand', just a jig from the other end of the setup?

Sharpening gouges, axes, draw knives etc. freehand has almost nothing in common with sharpening plane irons and bench chisels. Gouges are rubbed bevel in the longitudinal direction of the stone whilst rolling the bevel, other tools remain still and have the stone presented to them and slip stones to the canals. The first re-shaping of carving gouges from abused antique or a newly manufactured one takes absolutely ages to do on stones, and if there was a jig for this I would gladly have one and save hours of time. I am currently re shaping about 20 assorted carving tools a la Chris Pye, and it is TEDIOUS.

Also, I have noticed that many freehand honers using oilstones here do not advance further than a Fine India stone. (Not all, so edit this appropriately if you DO actually sharpen to the degree I'm wanting with my tools) if they used a translucent Arkansas stone, (which is still not quite as fine as I go, but about as fine as you can get with oil stones) they might find a jig a godsend after all, 'cause these stones take bloody ages, maybe 30 or 40 strokes, which you will agree is hard for the human frame to achieve with a real level of consistency. But then I know some will say that I get my tools too sharp (if there could be such a thing!) and they didn't do it like that in Chippendales day, blah blah.

Like I said before, just different ways of getting to the point of doing woodwork. If one finds an advantage that another doesn't understand, what is the problem?


Mike.

 

[DTR]

Hope you'll post some pictures when you've done the stairs, Jacob. Much more interesting to discuss projects than sharpening :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

I quite agree =D>

 

[Corneel]

Sharpening gouges, axes, draw knives etc. freehand has almost nothing in common with sharpening plane irons and bench chisels.

Huh? When we look at a gouge, the closest relative to the chisel, we see it sharpens exactly the same as a chisel, except you have an additional rolling motion like you mention. So it is just plain logic to practice first on chisels, before you are going to try to learn freehand on gouges. Learning is best done when you start with the simple things, trying to get the art down, then move on to a more difficult task.

Also, I have noticed that many freehand honers using oilstones here do not advance further than a Fine India stone. (Not all, so edit this appropriately if you DO actually sharpen to the degree I'm wanting with my tools) if they used a translucent Arkansas stone, (which is still not quite as fine as I go, but about as fine as you can get with oil stones) they might find a jig a godsend after all, 'cause these stones take bloody ages, maybe 30 or 40 strokes, which you will agree is hard for the human frame to achieve with a real level of consistency. But then I know some will say that I get my tools too sharp (if there could be such a thing!) and they didn't do it like that in Chippendales day, blah blah.

Well, I use waterstones down to a Naniwa SS 8000 grit. But when you use an Arkansas and need 30 to 40 strokes each time you touch up an edge, you might want to sharpen more often. BTW, don't you use a strop?

Here is a video with an effective method to sharpen with oilstones:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Z0ClNp_Eknw

 

[bugbear]

Bugbear. If you get a superior edge using a jig it suggests that you haven't quite got the freehand method sorted.

To me it suggests that jig offer an advantage.

How do we resolve this disagreement?

BugBear

 

[iNewbie]

Agree to disagree - and use the method(s) that suits your habit.

 

[Jacob]

......
Like I said before, just different ways of getting to the point of doing woodwork. If one finds an advantage that another doesn't understand, what is the problem?


Mike.

The problem is that when anybody (such as our OP) mentions freehand sharpening there is a massed reaction from the naysayers. OK so they can't do it themselves but they shouldn't try to persuade everybody else that they can't do it either!
Re fineness of stones as above. Law of diminishing returns. Finer you go the longer it takes and the shorter the life of the edge. Common sense says there is a point where, for woodworking purposes, scraper, sander (or nothing) is the next step. There is a quasi religious zeal for ultimate plane sharpness instead, which is slightly bonkers IMHO.

 

[bugbear]

The problem is that when anybody (such as our OP) mentions freehand sharpening there is a massed reaction from the naysayers. OK so they can't do it themselves but they shouldn't try to persuade everybody else that they can't do it either!

All I see is people advising according to their experience and knowledge.

If people have different opinions, that's what discussion groups are for.

BugBear

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Agree to disagree - and use the method(s) that suits your habit.

I wholeheartedly agree with this - but with a small caveat.

The OP stated that he (or she) was having difficulty getting good, consistent results with freehand sharpening, and asked for advice. One or two of us have tried to outline the technique we use to sharpen (for example, Mignal's preference for using short strokes of the blade on the stone, and slowly moving over the stone's surface), in the hope that taking something from the various methods might help to resolve the OP's problems. No two people sharpen in quite the same way, so the OP will have to develop their own method, but it does help if people describe what they do and perhaps why it works for them. There isn't one 'right' way of sharpening, and the only 'wrong' way is one which results in tools that aren't sharp enough.

Come on chaps - just throwing brickbats at each other won't help to resolve the OP's problems at all. Just describe how you get a good edge, and maybe why you evolved the method that works for you. I'm sure even the experienced among us could take something positive from others' experience.

 

[MIGNAL]

Bugbear. If you get a superior edge using a jig it suggests that you haven't quite got the freehand method sorted.

To me it suggests that jig offer an advantage.

How do we resolve this disagreement?

BugBear

Afraid not. If jigs offered an improvement for a sharper edge then pretty much all the fiddle makers I know would be using one. They aren't though. These people work in Ebony and highly figured Maple. Knife is a mainstay. They get them SERIOUSLY sharp, at least the ones that I know do. Sharp enough to 'chop' hairs, not just shave them at their base. That is sharpening taken to another level. But they are sharpening their tools without jigs. That jig must be pretty special to get an edge sharper than that. I haven't come across one yet though. I've only tried a couple. Maybe the Veritas gets things sharper :roll:
BTW. Woodbrains. I use a coarse Oil stone, then straight to a 8,000G waterstone followed by a strop. Leather is good. Drop your hand a touch to prevent rounding over. It's all pretty easy once you know how.

 

[MIGNAL]

Agree to disagree - and use the method(s) that suits your habit.

I wholeheartedly agree with this - but with a small caveat.

The OP stated that he (or she) was having difficulty getting good, consistent results with freehand sharpening, and asked for advice. One or two of us have tried to outline the technique we use to sharpen (for example, Mignal's preference for using short strokes of the blade on the stone, and slowly moving over the stone's surface), in the hope that taking something from the various methods might help to resolve the OP's problems. No two people sharpen in quite the same way, so the OP will have to develop their own method, but it does help if people describe what they do and perhaps why it works for them. There isn't one 'right' way of sharpening, and the only 'wrong' way is one which results in tools that aren't sharp enough.

Come on chaps - just throwing brickbats at each other won't help to resolve the OP's problems at all. Just describe how you get a good edge, and maybe why you evolved the method that works for you. I'm sure even the experienced among us could take something positive from others' experience.

I used jigs for years. Even though I had trouble with thin chisels I still continued to use them. I also used freehand, on blades that obviously could not be jigged. Never thought about the contradiction that Corneel mentioned. It's only when I thought about the 'problem' that I changed over to freehand. I used to play Violin a little (badly). Then I thought how much harder it is to pull the bow across the strings in a very controlled manner. In some ways it's not unlike pushing/pulling a blade the full length of an oil stone whilst maintaining an angle. The difference is that the Violin bow is MUCH more complex. There's two directions or 'planes' to think about, there's counterbalance and subtle changes in pressure or weight. There's slow and fast, stop and start. There's fade. We only have a mere fraction of those skills when it comes to sharpening a blade.

 

[Corneel]

When you give real honest advice, you should add that using the jig leads you away from the ultimate path to sharp edges on ALL woodworking tools. Freehand sharpening is a skill that needs to be learned anyway, sooner or later. Better get it out of the way right at the start. As soon as you are addicted to the jig, learning freehand when you really need it will take more effort.

Added advantage of going the freehand route is the liberating experience and the cost and time savings.

 

[woodbrains]

Well, I use waterstones down to a Naniwa SS 8000 grit. But when you use an Arkansas and need 30 to 40 strokes each time you touch up an edge, you might want to sharpen more often. BTW, don't you use a strop?

Here is a video with an effective method to sharpen with oilstones:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Z0ClNp_Eknw

Hello,

I use 8000 grit waterstones too. I still use oilstones occasionally, but stopped using them as my main media because of the speed issue. It has nothing to do with sharpening sooner with the Arkansas stones, they are hard and remove very little material. It is as much a metal consolidation with those stone as metal removal. I used mica slate instead of the Translucent Arkansas because of the quicker cutting but they also wear quicker. There is a relationship between stone wear and cutting efficiency that you will of course know, being a waterstone user. Stropping after the slate brought me to about the same level of sharpness as the 8000 waterstone, but took more stages, so the waterstones are a no brainier, really. But please, do not acuse me of not sharpening often enough, etc, etc. I've been doing it for so many years I get the tools laser sharp and quickly, my work (and mentality I suppose) needs very sharp tools.

Sharper edges stay sharper longer, this is a simple truth that eludes some. This is a time saver too, and if I get that sharper edge quicker than someone might a less sharp edge, how is there a downside?

The whole point is, the OP now has tools that don't work as well as when he sharpened with a jig. He may do well to persevere with freehand honing, I don't have a problem with that. But it is the false assumption that you can only sharpen 'little and often' freehand, but somehow cannot with a jig, that I reject. I sharpen little and often and mostly use a jig; there is no conflict. It is quick enough and I was a professional maker, time was not prohibitive. If the OP gets his tools working as they were with a jig, but cannot without, there is no issue. Do whatever it takes to get the tools to the state where you can work wood happily. My guess is, his little sharpening was not removing enough metal lo get past the wear bevel at the flat side of the tool, which he was doing with the jig. He perhaps needs to recognise what needs to be achieved during sharpening, rather than just rubbing the tool on stones and thinking there is some sort of better way one way or the other.

Mike.