Old wooden planes - still worth it?

[GazPal]

From a user's standpoint I hate the way prices can be driven high by collectors, but from a collector's standpoint, my enthusiasm for the things I collect sometimes gets the better of me.

There really aren't too many tools which are desirable to both users and collectors. Certainly in this instance there are plenty of usable rounds that aren't made by Nicholson!

In the areas where usable tools of old are rare (and hence desirable to collectors), the good old designs have been remade. Many of the early LN models were simply a cheaper way to get super-rare Stanleys for bench use.

Further, the collectors have done a damn good job of preserving the history of tools, providing reference material that us 'umble users can learn from.

Many of the really useful tools were made in such huge numbers (and are now so universally spurned by the majority) that getting good cheap old tools remains fairly easy.

BugBear

As an avid collector (Items other than tools) I agree to a certain extent in terms of the whether something is a collectable or user piece, but there is a degree of overlap between the two disciplines/interests. Unless something is in mint/extremely fine condition or historically important, collectables typically fall into the realms of being beginner's collection pieces or user tools. Although it's best to try and collect nr mint pieces, not all beginners realise this and they often begin with buying user pieces and progress from there as their interest grows and becomes more informed. Quite often a collector's budget will limit his/her ability to progress onto gathering finer pieces.

In terms of collector's preserving the history of tools. Yes, if made available for viewing by the public or via literature, but not if solely held within a private collection and never to again see the light of day. Even if donated to a museum, a historic piece is not guaranteed display time and may simply be relegated to the vaults/storage cases or boxes. The majority unfortunately fall firmly within the realms of private collections or storage and this can often tend to make those left even more valuable regardless of condition. This is where collecting IMHO can drive prices of given pieces beyond the practical reach of the majority.

As always, desire, availability and ability to buy often depend on budget. One good aspect of the comparatively recent surge of interest in highly spec'd new tools is the fact so many good old user (Bread and butter) tools remain inexpensive. We'd all like the best money can afford, but the best isn't always a necessity.

We somehow managed to make good living producing high quality goods using lower spec'd tools for centuries. I often find myself cringing when someone asks for tool recommendations and finds him/herself assailed with a barrage of potentially out of reach examples, instead of sticking to basics. Buying the best you can afford and justify is always the way to go, but a more productive route would IMHO be if they were pointed in the direction of woodworking classes where they'll gain a grounding in the craft and feel for what they'll need. Then they can tool up depending on the direction in which their interest takes them.

 

[Jacob]

....
The lettering on the plane was done with a hand stamp, not carved......

I meant that the stamp was hand carved - or "embossed" "impressed" etc. Distinctly free-hand and informal.

 

[Rob Lee]

(snip)

Does that reduce what you would pay for it?

Hi Andy -

I hope that's a tongue-in-cheek comment...!

The last Brown auction I went to had an "F. Nicholson, Wrentham" plane that was estimated at USD 5,000-7,000.... my notes say it went for USD $10,500 ....

I, however, bought a Robert Wooding, for a measly $200 . Wooding was an early British planemaker from the late 1600's....

It's not as much the condition of the plane that matters - it's the maker that most important....

I'd suggest writing Clarence Blanchard at the Fine Tool Journal (also Brown Auction services) for some info... that plane may have more value to an American collector, than a UK collector....

Cheers -

Rob

 

[Rob Lee]

Write 1000 times....

ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS read page two before replying....!!! I missed it - the page was too wide on my screen.... :?



Just wait 'till April... I'll getcha back.... :shock:

Cheers -

Rob

 

[AndyT]

I'm glad that everyone seems to have enjoyed my "innocent" questions! I agree with pretty much all of what has been said, and there have been some very thoughtful comments. My intention was not to trick anyone, but just to prompt some discussion about how value is not only linked to usefulness, but also to significance.

I'd sooner see historic artefacts valued and preserved rather than being tossed aside as junk, and will continue to look after the few, common specimens that I own and try to use.

And I will read this forum extra carefully when April comes around!

 

[sdbranam]

....
The lettering on the plane was done with a hand stamp, not carved......

I meant that the stamp was hand carved - or "embossed" "impressed" etc. Distinctly free-hand and informal.

Oops, yes, sorry Jacob, I misinterpreted your statement!

 

[lwilliams]

I see a few in the U.S of A are following this thread;

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread. ... ost1555565

Although they not exactly known for tact, I just wish some would offer to educate by adding something constructive, rather than sit smugly on their fat behinds while passing snide remarks behind other's backs.

Gary,

I had no intention of "passing snide remarks." I can't imagine why British hand tool woodworkers would have any reason to study early American wooden planes. I also couldn't figure out under what circumstances a Nicholson plane would end up in a British boot sale or what ever. I do have to admit being amused by the thread title and some of the comments. I was also amused by the poster on the American forum who didn't quite grasp the significance of the Nicholson plane and posted something similar to some of the posts in this thread. All-in-all, I enjoyed Andy's little prank, it was great fun for me.

 

[GazPal]

I see a few in the U.S of A are following this thread;

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread. ... ost1555565

Although they not exactly known for tact, I just wish some would offer to educate by adding something constructive, rather than sit smugly on their fat behinds while passing snide remarks behind other's backs.

Gary,

I had no intention of "passing snide remarks." I can't imagine why British hand tool woodworkers would have any reason to study early American wooden planes. I also couldn't figure out under what circumstances a Nicholson plane would end up in a British boot sale or what ever. I do have to admit being amused by the thread title and some of the comments. I was also amused by the poster on the American forum who didn't quite grasp the significance of the Nicholson plane and posted something similar to some of the posts in this thread. All-in-all, I enjoyed Andy's little prank, it was great fun for me.

Much of the reason why Andy's prank worked so well is the fact we'd assumed the plane was British in origin and not American. Hence the lack of interest in an apparently unheard of British maker, although there was a Nicholson working as a planemaker in Cumberland (An English county) during the same period. Hollows and rounds are literally ten a penny in comparison to those made during the same period in America and therefore priced accordingly unless by a respected maker.

As far as I'm aware all postings within your thread were made by American members and the one poster you seem to be referring to had made an opening comment, then simply copied and pasted one of the offerings directly from this thread in the hope you'd all realise you were barking up the wrong tree. You fell for that one too, by not taking the time to read and inwardly digest. :lol:

The snide remarks and attitude to which I'd referred did not relate to your opening comments in that thread. Inferred ignorance is what it is, but more an indication of the poor attitude of those passing such remarks and not the intelligence of those they've all too readily chosen to pass comment on. They need to work on their speed reading and comprehension.

I enjoyed this prank too and believe we've all had a laugh about it, but nothing insulting was said. Unlike the content of the other thread.

 

[Jacob]

I think the chap who posted up my comments about the inferiority of wooden planes may have misunderstood me. I only meant that they were inferior to steel planes as tools for planing wood.
In every other respect they are obviously utterly superior, particularly in terms of their overall woodiness.
Not counting moulding planes of course - for which there never was much on offer in the way of metal alternatives

 

[GazPal]

I think the chap who posted up my comments about the inferiority of wooden planes may have misunderstood me. I only meant that they were inferior to steel planes as tools for planing wood.
In every other respect they are obviously utterly superior, particularly in term of their overall woodiness.
Not counting moulding planes of course - for which there never was much on offer in the way of metal alternatives

Nah, to be honest, I think he understood all to well, but chose to take the less tolerant route.

I think you're perfectly right regarding how wooden planes compare with iron ones. For me, it's more to do with the way woodies can distort during humidity and temperature changes and prove so variable. Many overcame this by shodding their planes with steel, copper or brass and iron/steel adjustable nosings. While they can certainly pack a punch when it boils down to putting them to work, they're still not as easy to quickly adjust as iron-clads of the Bailey or Norris types with adjusters.

IMHO there's no real way of replacing wooden moulding planes unless they cast ones to suit each standard form, but it's still a shame Record did away with their skewed rebate/fillister plane.

 

[Richard T]

Seems to be Nicholson is as revered and sought after name for the Americans as Norris is for us lot. If this is by son - of chap who was probably fettling on the Mayflower it's bound to be pricey.

So Nicholson made the earliest American planes; got me wondering about the earliest English planes .... found this one

- 4th century ad, Anglo Roman, East Yorkshire. And even then it's not wood. It's an iron sole with elephant ivory infill.
Don't think it's much of a user though - seems to have been somewhat mistreated by a previous owner.

 

[GazPal]

Our Anglo-Roman ancestors have a lot to answer for. It's totally scandalous how some people abuse their tools, but a little boiled linseed oil and a soak in citric acid for the metalwork (What blade or rivet?) and she'll be as good as new in next to no time. :wink:

I wonder if it was made by Old Old Old Old Old (Insufficient space for Olds) man Nicholson near Pickering? If so, it'll be worth an absolute mint if made by the fore fore fore fore fore (Insufficient space for fores) father of one of the founding fathers of North American plane making.

Get it on Evil-Bay quick! :lol:

 

[studders]

Okay, so I left it out in the rain for a couple of days, what's the big deal?

 

[GazPal]

Okay, so I left it out in the rain for a couple of days, what's the big deal?

Should have gone to Specsavers :lol:

The shame of it. You could have at least threatened it with a little oil. :roll:

 

[kirkpoore1]

Okay, so I left it out in the rain for a couple of days, what's the big deal?

Coupla days, or coupla millenia?

Just remember, rusty tools make Baby Jesus cry!

anonymous, laying on the guilt with a trowel...

 

[GazPal]

FANTASTICALLY RARE MUSTGRABBUS ASMANY ASWE CANNUS HANDPLANE by Old Mannus Nicholsonus - As preferred by Carpenters, Joiners, Journeymen, Romans and the odd Gladiator or three.

Comes with very comprehensive service history and original logbook available. I have a spare blade somewhere and will include it in this sale.

ONCE OWNED by NERO (The Fiddler) CAESAR!

One not always too careful owner & sale due to recent (It wasn't that bad really) city fire. Slightly water-logged due to recent sinking of transport ship, but it should clean up and dry out fine.

BUY IT NOW $15,999.99
BIDS: $5.50 BIDDERS: ( 28 )

EXPERTS SAY A COAT OF VARNISH AND SOME TIME SPENT WITH A TORMEKUS SHARPENITUPAGAINUS SHOULD HAVE THIS MARVELLOUS YE OLDE WORLDE HANDPLANE BACK TO PRISTINE CONDITION IN NO TIME.

NO TIME WASTERS PLEASE & ONLY BIDDERS WITH POSITIVE FEEDBACK!

 

[AndyT]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[jimi43]

Hey...that is a superb design!

I simply love those hand holds!

I have just got to make one like that!

:shock:

Jim

 

[Pvt_Ryan]

Hey...that is a superb design!

I simply love those hand holds!

I have just got to make one like that!

:shock:

Jim

Just keep looking on fleabay / car boot sales. I'm sure you will come across an original with your luck..

Ryan

 

[Jacob]

Hey...that is a superb design!

I simply love those hand holds!

...

Yes I was looking at the hand holds too. It look quite practical (and why would it not be?)
I think it would be fairly similar to the grip of a modern woodie jack. Did a thread on this topic here;
http://www.woodworkuk.co.uk/forum/viewt ... f=5&t=1351