Old axi catalogue

[johnnyb]

Does anyone have an older axi catalogue that lists traditional window cutters? Could I ask for a photo of the page pleeeease!

 

[JSW]

I have one from 2005, do you mean for the spindle?

Edit: I may have some older catalogues from the '90's I believe, but they would take some finding, the 2005 one I knew exactly where to look

 

[Ollie78]

Whitehill do the same cutters they are probably 1/2 inch and 9/16 flat Ovolo.
I can take a picture of the actual cutters tomorrow if you like.

Ollie

 

[Jack (W)]

Does anyone have an older axi catalogue that lists traditional window cutters? Could I ask for a photo of the page pleeeease!

Page 204 of the September 1993 Axminster catalogue has a small illustration of Whitehill spindle cutter profiles.

I’ve no idea if that is what you are looking for, but if it is here is a photo of the page.

 

[alan895]

If it helps these pages are from the 2000 catalogue.

 

[johnnyb]

Guys your amazing. I brought some cutters and I was a bit puzzled as they were obviously whitehill but marked axminster. It's the 2000 catalogue set 65 66, a staff bead cutter, a rather strange slightly angled rebate knife(might be for drainage off the rebate) it's literally 1 or 2 mill drop. A drip groove, and a larger rebate. I think its the 3/8 mortice flat ovolo.
I also love those traditional whitehill cutters buying singles instead of 4 worked out massively cheaper I reckon.

 

[johnnyb]

I'm guessing the rebate is to shallow for double glazing being 3/8" unless your using heritage edge strip. I always think 15mm about right for standard dgu. Having the 3/8 mortice gives an eighth extra inset(over the half inch mortice)

 

[johnnyb]

I've spent all day sussing these cutters and making a pair of sashes.
First they work well but without a day to figure the sizes and compatability with the multico also the sizes I think its not simple. The top rail and the bottom rail were easily scribed then moulded as was one end of the narrow glazing bars. At that point I was making the meeting rails by hand using slot tenons. And moulding the lower meeting rail by removing the cutters from the multico as the separate ovolo is ground on the bottom of the scribe cutters. The top sash was rebated on the router table with hand cut slot tenons (no mould)
This can't be how it's done? What shortcuts are taken plant on meeting rails? Thus allowing the lower meeting rail to be tenoned. It was easier making by hand in all honesty. I guess the more glazing bars the more it's worthwhile. Any tips guys

 

[johnnyb]

How do you regular sashmakers joint your meeting rails? Does anyone have any pics?

 

[johnnyb]

Anyway I've made a pair of sashes for a case I made. I followed the window and doormaking book as closely as possible and I can say its a real challenge. To arrive at a pair of sashes that are perfectly jointed and of a size that are planable and with well fitted meeting rails from the first few attempts is extremely challenging. I would even suggest a seven year apprenticeship would not be to long to master all aspects of this. Bearing in mind this was a dominant style for 150 years. It's not impossible of course just fiendishly complex. I'm sure most these days don't use one piece meeting rails. Anyway my intention is to not glue this one up and use it as a reference the next time I have to make one.
Cassells illustrates an even more tricksy method of joining the meeting rails using dovetail shaped tenons to resist "pulling off" ooo er...missus.

 

[johnnyb]

Here the finished examples(complete with mistakes)

 

[Ollie78]

How do you regular sashmakers joint your meeting rails? Does anyone have any pics?

I am not quite sure what you mean here. Do you mean specifically bottom or top sash ? Both ?

I just do them the same as the top or bottom rail, they are slim so its a very small mortice and tenon. I know traditionally you would do the meeting rail to stile joint as a double tenon to allow for the one extra bit for the splayed section or the step if you do it that way. However, in order to do this with a spindle moulder you would need a special cutter grinding for every pattern so just do them as a single wedged tenon and glue and pin on the fillet after.

I have used those cutters to do slimline dgu`s I think they were 6.5mm sightline, a long time ago now but I think I had to do a second pass with a straight rebate cutter to increase the rebete. This is why running a moulding in a 96mm head under a 125mm rebate head is best, you can adjust it with spacers to get what you need.

You seem to have done a pretty good job to be honest. Make 10 then you will have the knack.
I would have said to re do the bar with the giant knot in the middle but as long as its for practice it should be fine.

In the next week or two I need to make some very traditional georgian 8 over 8 sashes with 12mm wide glazing bars and a very small double ovolo mould. So that will be fiddly. Been a while since I did any that skinny so probably best to make double the amount of bars just in case ! !
I wonder what your book says about wether you should do the horizontal bar in one piece (the way I think is best) or make the verticals one piece and joint the horizontal ones into them ?

Ollie

 

[johnnyb]

I made both meeting rails in one piece adding hugely to its complexity. But I was keen to try it by the book.albeit with the top and bottom rails using the cutters I got. It would be much easier to make as you suggest with plant on meeting rails!
Most books suggest the bars are run vertically to resist the forces(Inc through wedges at the meeting rails and top rail with cross dowels giving resistance on the deep bottom rail.
12mm bars are real thin. What's the rebate like 5mm. Many of the bars that small were dowelled together on the horizontals to try and leave some strength in the verticals(some dowel boxes have survived) I guess those dovetail tenons were also used in those Georgian frames as they hadn't yet started using horns to beef up the top sash stiles. When I've done thin ones on doors I've used a small mortice on the bars (1/4 on a 3/8 or 1/2 inch "typical" mortice arrangement to add doff to the bars.) It's worked well but results in an odd cogged joint(this could be made as a scribe tbh)
The wood was just scrap to practice on but it turned out the softwood was a used joist(11 by 3) and was very punky in areas.

 

[Ollie78]

I made both meeting rails in one piece adding hugely to its complexity. But I was keen to try it by the book.albeit with the top and bottom rails using the cutters I got. It would be much easier to make as you suggest with plant on meeting rails!
Most books suggest the bars are run vertically to resist the forces(Inc through wedges at the meeting rails and top rail with cross dowels giving resistance on the deep bottom rail.
12mm bars are real thin. What's the rebate like 5mm. Many of the bars that small were dowelled together on the horizontals to try and leave some strength in the verticals(some dowel boxes have survived) I guess those dovetail tenons were also used in those Georgian frames as they hadn't yet started using horns to beef up the top sash stiles. When I've done thin ones on doors I've used a small mortice on the bars (1/4 on a 3/8 or 1/2 inch "typical" mortice arrangement to add doff to the bars.) It's worked well but results in an odd cogged joint(this could be made as a scribe tbh)
The wood was just scrap to practice on but it turned out the softwood was a used joist(11 by 3) and was very punky in areas.

Yep they are proper skinny,you can see the dowel in the glazing bar.

 

[johnnyb]

Are they called cove and astragal?

 

[johnnyb]

I've made dowel jigs from hardwood then soaked in thin epoxy. They last well(well enough for this anyway)