interested in your experiences paying for tradespeople

[Matt@]

try being an english landlord with a welsh rental property that you live 90 miles a way from :shock: . Theres only one way to get things done and thats to get your wallet out lol.

Aside from Wales, never beat a trade down in price IMO

99% of them are in it for the money (and why not) thus they will only want to do whats most profitable. If its not profitable , its down to their goodwill even to talk to you. Trying to get a job done at a reasonable price quickly and well is nigh on impossible IMO

Times have changed from when trades were subservient "and knew their place" and customer is king to having gone full circle where they will pick and choose and work for you if you are lucky

Cynicism and jaundice sets in after 20 years which means they work slower and no price is ever enough (you dont want one of these guys )

So its not only me then lol - this thread has made me feel a whole lot better

PS great respect to those trades that do the right thing..I'm being slightly tongue in cheek here

 

[Jacob]

.....
Anyway, the extension is now finished and would be a good job but for the leaking roof! ....

Probably because you insisted on them doing it your way! :lol: :lol:

 

[Jacob]

try being an english landlord with a welsh rental property that you live 90 miles a way from :shock: . Theres only one way to get things done and thats to get your wallet out lol.

Aside from Wales, never beat a trade down in price IMO

99% of them are in it for the money (and why not) thus they will only want to do whats most profitable. If its not profitable , its down to their goodwill even to talk to you. Trying to get a job done at a reasonable price quickly and well is nigh on impossible IMO

Times have changed from when trades were subservient "and knew their place" and customer is king to having gone full circle where they will pick and choose and work for you if you are lucky

Cynicism and jaundice sets in after 20 years which means they work slower and no price is ever enough (you dont want one of these guys )

So its not only me then lol - this thread has made me feel a whole lot better

PS great respect to those trades that do the right thing..I'm being slightly tongue in cheek here

I expect local Welsh tradesmen would have a lot of sympathy for an absentee English landlord looking to get work done on the cheap! :lol: :lol:
Not least because of the inflated rents and house prices they would be paying, due to holiday lets, 2nd homes, absentee landlords etc etc

 

[Matt@]

Jacob, yes exactly! got to tread very carefully and just pay!!

 

[Lons]

I learned very early on that being beaten down on price and quality of work can be a disaster - if it fails you are expected to return and lose even more time and money by putting it right.
Don't let the b*sterds beat you down!
Had some very shity clients over the years. The worst are the know-it-alls who think they know exactly how it should be done and exactly how much it should cost.
Those looking for competitive quotes are to be avoided - if they know no better than to go by price alone then let them employ some cheapskate twerp who knows as little about it as they do.
You price a job up then some ask for your 'best price' - to which the answer is a polite f.o.
Some want you to break a price down and will the argue about each item, or will spot something cheaper on Amazon - as if you base your pricing on cheapest Amazon offer!
There's a sort of syndrome which you grow to recognise from their attitudes; "R sole clients to be avoided" - and sometimes get the chance to warn other tradesmen away from the too, or advise them to stick 25% on to the estimate to cover contingencies!
Had a sh*thead farmer who said he only paid his bills on lady day or something - once a year.
But have had many happy clients, usually by word of mouth, who are helpful, considerate, appreciative and pay the bills immediately and recognise a job well done.

That's exactly how I approached it Jacob although I was very polite.
I guess I was lucky to always have more than enough work so was never tempted to accept work via a phone call from unknowns who spotted me in the advertising lists I never subscribed to or insurance work where I knew they just wanted a few estimates.

Many of my former customers became and have remained friends.

Bob

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, yes exactly! got to tread very carefully and just pay!! one benefit I think is the welsh don't like spending money so I think in a way the trades there like the English as they pay more..

If you think the Welsh are somehow different from the English then that attitude won't do you much good, not least because you are horribly wrong.
I lived in Wales for a long time and loved it - and the people I lived and worked with.

 

[transatlantic]

I've had three different companies come to service my boiler and don't want to use any of them again. All of them were well recommened with reviews online (I think that is where I am going wrong)

- The first seemed to know what he was doing but was openly bad mouthing the company he worked for and was explaining how they overcharge and don't give proper training, and was going to leave as soon as he could.

- The second introduced leaking issues after he corrected a radiator. He came back to repair the first leak, but it leaked again and then he stopped replying to my calls

- The last guy. Well. I have no confidence he knew what he was doing. He asked to look at the previous service document to see how to configure the flue.

 

[Matt@]

@ jacob you dont know what I think of the welsh. I actually like wales and like the welsh. It is a fact that areas of wales are impoverished therefore by definition the homeowners will not be paying the kind of rates people pay round where I live.

 

[Lons]

99% of them are in it for the money (and why not) thus they will only want to do whats most profitable. If its not profitable , its down to their goodwill even to talk to you.

Times have changed from when trades were subservient "and knew their place" and customer is king to having gone full circle where they will pick and choose and work for you if you are lucky

Cynicism and jaundice sets in after 20 years which means they work slower and no price is ever enough (you dont want one of these guys )


PS great respect to those trades that do the right thing..I'm being slightly tongue in cheek here

Tongue in cheek accepted why should a skilled tradesman be subservient Matt?
Assuming they are truly skilled and take pride in their work you are paying for that knowledge and expertise in the same way as you would a dentist, financial advisor or anyone else who makes a living from their talent.

I seriously doubt your "99%" statistic, there are a lot of genuine guys out there doing their best with increasingly difficult customers with unrealistic expectations. It's the unqualified, unscrupulous chancers who cause the problem.

I often did small favour jobs for people foc and at unsociable hours and always willing to give advice when asked as my view was that what goes around comes around and I know I got the bigger paying work because of that.

I didn't make a fortune just a reasonable living away from the previous stressful occupation where you were only as good as yesterdays results.

Trying to get a job done at a reasonable price quickly and well is nigh on impossible IMO

Because the good ones usually have a waiting list.

Bob

 

[Matt@]

no I didnt say they should be subservient its that they used to be or moreso back then than now. Attitudes have changed and trades can earn alot of money and call the shots, obviously as a trade myself this is all good. Maybe 99% a bit high then but why do people go to work?

 

[Lons]

no I didnt say they should be subservient its that they used to be or moreso back then than now. Attitudes have changed and trades can earn alot of money and call the shots, obviously as a trade myself this is all good. Maybe 99% a bit high then but why do people go to work?

Fair enough.

 

[Matt@]

no I didnt say they should be subservient its that they used to be or moreso back then than now. Attitudes have changed and trades can earn alot of money and call the shots, obviously as a trade myself this is all good. Maybe 99% a bit high then but why do people go to work?

Fair enough.

Lons do you think I'm right saying this? I do find it interesting this shift that seems (to me) to have happened where trades are the new proffessionals rather than the guys that got their hands dirty "working for others" The problem alot of householders have I think is that they havnt moved with the times in recognising this hence possibly the frictions that can occur between the two parties. Trades have woken up to the fact that they have skills that people need and why shouldnt they earn as much as the others for providing these skills. Where it goes slightly wrong IMO is that they now have the earning power but dont pay attention to the detail

 

[Jacob]

Trying to get a job done at a reasonable price quickly and well is nigh on impossible IMO

Because many people seem to think a reasonable price is much less then they themselves would be happy to earn.
Most tradesmen don't charge anything like enough.

 

[Jacob]

.... Where it goes slightly wrong IMO is that they now have the earning power but dont pay attention to the detail

Whereas your typical solicitor will do a perfect job, charge peanuts and be off the case in a flash.
We spent an hour with a barrister. That alone cost £1k and we still lost £50k (would have been 100k) over a bad deal with another solicitor over a legacy. That was after 3 years of wrangling. They all got paid, the solicitor who cause the problem was covered by insurance, the only losers were ourselves.
Local chap serviced our boiler. Took him an hour, charged £60.

 

[Halo Jones]

This is an interesting thread. All the would be "customers" are saying they don't know how to get good trades folks in to do work and on the whole have had a lot of bad experiences. Then those in the trades are saying there are a lot of a-hole customers who should be avoided at all costs :lol:

As a "customer" could someone in the trades write a list of the things I should and should not ask to determine whether someone has a higher than average chance of doing a decent job?

 

[julianf]

Last time I had someone round was when some slates moved on the roof after a storm.

£40 quote was cheaper than a roof ladder. He did three separate areas.
I mentioned that both my neighbours also had issues, so he did both of their houses too. Then charged us each £20, instead of the original £40.

We would have all been happy to pay £40 each, I'm sure!

One man band with sign written van. Easy to communicate with. No issues.

He was ridiculously cheap and probably won't be at it for long.

I don't know - he did some slates on our roof about 5 years back, so it's not like he's gone out of business yet.

His day rate is 150. I was able to present him with a job that he could do on his way back from a days work. So on that day, he would have earned £210, but obviously got home a bit later than normal.

Seems to me like he is probably doing ok.

 

[rafezetter]

Wow....

I don't know whether to just take myself out the back and hang myself now, or just decide to ignore what most of you have said.

I'm not in it for the money, I'm here for the same reason Lons was - I rise or fall on my own merits, rather than some corporate targets for fat cats already with more money than I'll ever see in my lifetime.

I'm going to still do the best work I can, at prices my conscience can live with, because at the end of the day it'll be the only legacy I leave behind.

Maybe that makes me stupid, or naive, but at least it'll be MY choices, mostly.

I'll still be happy if people ask me for receipts, because "adding a little extra because that's just how it is" is the reason why so many customers think they have to keep an eye on you. I've had a trades person say "I want a new festool vac, I'll just roll it into my next customers price" - and with a totally straight face as though it was the most natural thing - I think that's immoral, especially considering it's a deductable anyway.

When companies like Ikea, Lidl and Aldi offer good value because thier buying power means thier overheads are lower and they can pass that on to the customer, the customers appreciate it, and in turn the company thrives, because they get more custom.

As far as the "displays lack of trust" - unless you have done work for this person before, and there's an anomaly they want to check (it's thier money.. remember?) then most work is for new people who don't know you from Adam, getting huffy because they want to check you are not chiselling is completely understandable, and checking the receipts on the first occasion might be the only time they feel the need to, if it all looks kosher, they relax and you can crack on.

You work out the costs, add your margin and that's it. Folding in "personal extras" under the guise of something else is obviously not above board, otherwise you'd not be hiding it; and the truth is when you have your car serviced and they add all those "extras" that you didn't ask for or they said you needed, you are rightly suspicious and annoyed, same goes for those "all inclusive" holidays, that have surcharges for everyday things.

Some might call it karma.

 

[Just4Fun]

I'll still be happy if people ask me for receipts, because "adding a little extra because that's just how it is" is the reason why so many customers think they have to keep an eye on you. I've had a trades person say "I want a new festool vac, I'll just roll it into my next customers price" - and with a totally straight face as though it was the most natural thing - I think that's immoral, especially considering it's a deductable anyway.

Over here in Finland I have had a few people operate quite differently to the way the trades do in the UK. What they do is just go to the supplier (builders merchants or wherever), get what they need, and have the bill sent directly to me. This helps their cash flow and means I get the itemised bills directly from the source. It removes any chance of them adding a mark-up on the materials, which is good for me but maybe bad for them. It also means I can be billed by a supplier I have no direct contract with and the supplier is left billing someone they may have never seen or heard of, but they seem to do it so the system works. I don't know what would happen if I refused to pay, or disputed a bill.

 

[Lons]

Don't hang yourself just yet Rafezetta, life is too short already! #-o

I got a lot out of doing the best job I possibly could - pride! If someone wanted a cheap bodge job I said thanks but no thanks!

Why should I show a customer, new or not, receipts for materials? I repeat, if a customer ever asked me to show those I would politely refuse the job. They are at liberty to give the work to whoever they choose and if I have given them a detailed quote or estimate then take it or leave it. As a small business I had to trust that customer would pay me promptly so trust works both ways. Should a tradesman be saying " show me your bank statement to prove you have the means to pay?

I bought at trade prices and sometimes passed on part of the discount but that is imo honest legitimate profit and the customer if buying himself wouldn't get that trade discount. I factored some of that profit into paying my overheads and yes that included a small % for vehicle running costs, replacement of tools which is fair as you need to replace due to wear and tear, loss and breakage. The remainder was used to grow my business. Yes they can be written off in your accounts against tax but that's only true if you're making money in the first place.
The full cost of tools or machinery to a job isn't on unless specifically needed and made clear on the estimate.
I did a few times allow a customer to provide the materials, BIG MISTAKE, every time there were problems with those or delayed delivery then left for me to sort which cost me time and money.
Where businesses get it wrong is forgetting to cover the little costs like running around to pick up materials, time chasing on the 'phone, using all those fixings out of stock and not including in the costs, I could go on, they all have to be paid for in the end do they not!

Get tradesmen via recommendation, ask to see examples of past work and if possible view a couple in person and ask those customers what their experience was like. I wouldn't trust on line reviews as far as I could throw them and am highly suspicious of some of the organisations who have few checks and sign almost anyone who will pay the fee to join. The number of sales calls I got from these organisations became a nuisance.

As an aside I'll give you an example of an a***le customer, not my job but a close friend who took on a bathroom project for a wealthy customer. They made a beautiful job including a number of add on extras.
The job was originally priced at around £16000 excluding extra work and at the end when he was given an invoice this guy said " right let's talk about price". My mate walked away with £3000 less than the quote so in total was almost £4000 out of pocket as it was that or take the guy through the courts and he needed to pay for the expensive fittings. It broke his spirit and he packed in 6 months later.

I would have ripped the bathroom out had it been me.

 

[Lons]

As a "customer" could someone in the trades write a list of the things I should and should not ask to determine whether someone has a higher than average chance of doing a decent job?

I think I answered some of that in my response to Rafezetter.

I firmly believe there is no substitute for recommendations from people you know, family, friends, neighbours, colleagues, the postie, shopkeeper we all know lots of people so ask around then ask for examples of past work similar to yours and visit some of those in person to ask those customers how it went.
Make sure they have liability insurance and get everything in writing, a simple contract with time schedules is easy enough. Objections to any of this should set the alarm bells ringing and you should get several estimates to compare not just prices but details.

Once the job is underway, be reasonable but firm if necessary, pay agreed deposit or justifiable costs up front but don't be pressured into paying more as a genuine business won't ask that of you.
Lastly, if happy at the end then pay up immediately and pass the guys name on to others.

Bob