Help with router - collet nut jammed

[BigShot]

Hey folks, I'm just about out of ideas here.

A while back I bought a workshop full of tools from the widow of a cabinetmaker who had died. In with them was a shop-made router table with router. Today I'm trying to use it for the first time, but unfortunately there's a bit in the collet and the nut won't budge.

The first I knew of the problem was when I put a pin through the hole in the shaft, turned the nut with a spanner and felt the plastic bits (that hold the pinned shaft in place) snap off. "Oh, great."

Since then I've gone through an assortment of old tools (a screwdriver, two allen keys) which I've broken or bent while trying to hold the shaft in place to turn the nut. Even gripping the shaft with (padded) mole grips and turning with the spanner hasn't given any joy... nor has heating the collet nut a wee bit to try and get it to expand a bit and loosen off the shaft so I could turn it.

The router is a Bosch POF 52 if that makes any difference.

I dread to think how long the bit's been in there. Probably a couple of years. Of course, it's not the bit I need either - otherwise I'd just get on with the job and come back to the problem later. Ah well.

Any advice on this would be much appreciated.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Hey folks, I'm just about out of ideas here.

A while back I bought a workshop full of tools from the widow of a cabinetmaker who had died. In with them was a shop-made router table with router. Today I'm trying to use it for the first time, but unfortunately there's a bit in the collet and the nut won't budge.

The first I knew of the problem was when I put a pin through the hole in the shaft, turned the nut with a spanner and felt the plastic bits (that hold the pinned shaft in place) snap off. "Oh, great."

Since then I've gone through an assortment of old tools (a screwdriver, two allen keys) which I've broken or bent while trying to hold the shaft in place to turn the nut. Even gripping the shaft with (padded) mole grips and turning with the spanner hasn't given any joy... nor has heating the collet nut a wee bit to try and get it to expand a bit and loosen off the shaft so I could turn it.

The router is a Bosch POF 52 if that makes any difference.

I have a smaller Bosch - breaking those lugs off has always worried me.

The best approach is probably penetrating fluid and patience. WD40 will help, but it's nowhere near as good as the proper stuff: 'Plus Gas' or 'Mr. Penetrant' (I didn't name it! ). You want the liquid rather than the aerosol if you can get it (Mr. P is liquid, but I can't seem to get Plus Gas in other than aerosol these days, which is useless!). Put a bit into the collet down the shank of the stuck router bit, then turn the router the other way up and put some onto the threads of the shaft next to the collet (so that it runs down into the nut on the threads). LEAVE IT ALONE FOR TWO OR THREE DAYS. You can top up the stuff on the threads I guess if you're feeling really keen.

When you come to try again, use the tightest fitting spanner you can find for the nut that's pref. not adjustable. if the cutter is scrap, clamp it tightly in the vice, between two bits of softwood, to hold the shaft. Take up the slack on the nut, then give the spanner a sharp tap in the right direction with a steel woodworking hammer (nothing bigger). If that doesn't release it, try tapping in the tightening-up direction a couple of times, then the other way again.

The aim is to release the stiction with a shock. As you've discovered, steadily applied force usually won't do it.

When you've got it free, clean and degrease the collet shaft and nut with meths and Xylene, to remove the penetrating fluid and prevent bits slipping in future. When you reassemble, very lightly grease the shaft thread, but don't get grease near the collet nor the inside of the nut.

I use carburettor cleaner on mine to get rid of the resin - everyone has their favourite poison for this.

The jam-up may be a sign of a worn collet, so it might be worth replacing it (and the nut if you're worried). Miles Tools and Machinery in Shepton Mallet keep spares.

HTH...

 

[BigShot]

*slaps forehead*
Why did I not think of WD40?
Maybe I'm so used to not letting the can within 10 feet of my bicycle (the main subject of my tinkering) that I just don't even consider it.

Funds are a bit tight for buying interestingly-named penetrating fluids (or anything else) so for now I'll have a crack at the methods you've suggested. I suppose the bit could be scrapped. I don't have a great deal of use for a beading bit at the moment so I won't miss it for the time being.

In about 5 minutes I'm going to pop some WD40 on as you described - maybe give it a bit of a try, just to see if gripping the bit will work better, and if not - I'll follow the instructions including the 3 day wait.

I'm using a tight spanner and not adjustable, so it's good on that front. The previous owner had written the spanner size on the table and the router which made chosing the right one much easier too.

On the plus side - now you know your fears about the plastic lugs were well founded. Haha.

"HTH..."
We'll soon see - but either way, thanks very much for taking the time to type up that very helpful advice. If nothing else it's something to try and you never know... it might even work!

Cheers.

 

[Digit]

I'm not familiar with that model BS but if it's the type of device where you push or pull a button or lever to lock the shaft their failure is quite common.
I simply remove that entire assembly and use a spanner to fit the flats on the shaft.

Roy.

 

[tigerhellmaker]

Use hammer
Hit bit and collet nut from different directions using some force.
Some times that help when screw stuck.

 

[AndyT]

A few more thoughts:

I've a similar router that has the pin + plastic lugs arrangement. I think you could use something long and strong with a 4mm dia part - maybe a parallel punch:

or even your original little tommy bar wedged into an offcut of steel conduit, to get a good leverage against the shaft. Then, with your long bar resting on the bench, and the body of the router held in your left hand, give the spanner a sharp tap with a small hammer.

Incidentally, the end assembly with the lugs on is available as a spare for about £15.

 

[BigShot]

Thanks for all the replies.

I tried holding the bit (I actually used a C clamp as I'm still workbench-less) and tapping the spanner with a hammer but the bit just turned in the collet. Even after sitting with WD40 on the threads until today (and none dropped along the bit shank just so it'd provide a better grip) it won't budge.

I followed that up with a few taps with a hammer and then a repeat attempt but it still wouldn't budge. I tried holding the shaft with the clamp and turning the nut but just couldn't get enough grip - afraid of marring the shaft I didn't put much effort in with that method.


Digit - I looked for a locking button before anything else as that's what I'm used to with my Dremel. There doesn't appear to be one on here though.


AndyT - Thanks for the heads up about the spare part. If I get this sorted without killing the router completely I'll probably replace the broken part so I can use a more orthodox approach in future.
Would a 4mm parallel punch be strong enough to be used like that without bending? If it's not to expensive and could be the difference between a working router and trash I'd be happy to give that a bash but if it's just going to bend like my (spare) allen key did I'd be far less keen to try that. I'm sure they don't cost a fortune but funds are tight enough already to make me think twice.
I'm not all that sure what a tommy bar is. It may be that I've got it (whatever it is) in one of the boxes I took out of the workshop but there's rather a lot of junk in there too so it'd take some finding even if I knew what it was.
The setup you described does sound like it would work though. I'm keen to give it a shot but I judt dunno if that's the right tool for the job. It may be, but my experience of shoving things through that hole so far as been somewhat unsuccessful.


Thanks again everyone.
If anyone has any more bright ideas to contribute to getting this collet opened - do feel free.

 

[Digit]

If all else fails BS dismantle the router and grip the armature in a soft jawed vice then try again.
If even this fails find a mate with a lathe and turn the nut off and buy a replacement.
This never fails! :lol:

Roy.

 

[paulm]

Not to overlook the obvious, apologies if it's grannies and eggs, are you trying to turn it the right way in case it's got a reverse thread to stop it unwinding with the rotation of the shaft in use ?

If I remember correctly, and I may not be as haven't used my handheld routers for a while, with the router on it's back and the base closest to you, using the spanner on the collet from right to left would undo the collet and vice versa.

Cheers, Paul

 

[AndyT]

Thanks for all the replies.



Would a 4mm parallel punch be strong enough to be used like that without bending? If it's not to expensive and could be the difference between a working router and trash I'd be happy to give that a bash but if it's just going to bend like my (spare) allen key did I'd be far less keen to try that. I'm sure they don't cost a fortune but funds are tight enough already to make me think twice.
I'm not all that sure what a tommy bar is. It may be that I've got it (whatever it is) in one of the boxes I took out of the workshop but there's rather a lot of junk in there too so it'd take some finding even if I knew what it was.
The setup you described does sound like it would work though. I'm keen to give it a shot but I judt dunno if that's the right tool for the job. It may be, but my experience of shoving things through that hole so far as been somewhat unsuccessful.


Thanks again everyone.
If anyone has any more bright ideas to contribute to getting this collet opened - do feel free.

I don't really know how tough a punch would be - I was just trying to think of something about the right shape to get a bit of leverage, but tougher steel than an old nail.

A tommy bar isn't a special tool - it's whatever you use to work like that.

Good luck!

 

[Eric The Viking]

Thanks for all the replies.

Even after sitting with WD40 on the threads until today (and none dropped along the bit shank just so it'd provide a better grip) it won't budge.

WD40 was formulated in WWII as a 40-day water repellent (WD= "water displacer"). It's rubbish as a lubricant (actually dries out grease and oils!), and not very good as a releaser.

Get the proper stuff (see earlier post), and try again. You'll be surprised how much more effective Plus Gas, etc. actually are. Also try to give it the sharpest shock (rotationally) you can with the spanner. Anything making it springy will reduce the effect markedly.

 

[BigShot]

Eric - "rubbish as a lubricant" and "dries out oils" is exactly why I won't use it on my bike. Proper degreasers, greases and oils only. Thanks very much for the WD40 history lesson. In all seriousness that's the kind of thing I really like to know. I had actually wondered what WD40 meant (if anything) - though clearly not enough to look it up. Thanks.

I can already see a couple of elements making things springy so I'll eliminate those and if need be I'll get some proper penetrating lube. I'm trying to avoid buying things at the moment but if it's the difference between loosening this collet and not I'll have to.


Andy - tough steel is definitely what I need. Do you think the punch might be tougher than that in an allen key (yea I know, who made the allen key would probably come into it!). If so it might do the job.
Thanks for the tommy bar answer. I never knew they were called that (Really BigShot? We thought you were asking because you already knew! duh!)


PaulM - not grannies and eggs, no... though if you'd asked me after my first attempt I'd have looked and quite simply said "oops". I was indeed turning it the wrong way. I've been doing it right since then though.


Digit - I'm open to that. I'd quite like to do it without resorting to that if I can though... especially as one of the bolts holding the router base to the table plate has rounded off and I can't find my extractor thingamajigs! Haha. If I can find that I may go for that.
I've got a wood lathe (though not set up yet) - though I know that's not quite what's needed for that job.
It does sound like a pretty fail-safe method though!

 

[RussianRouter]

Take a blowtorch to the nut that holds the collete,providing therre's no plastic bits aound that area seriously...heat the nut up with a torch flame.

 

[BigShot]

That's one of the first things I tried. No joy.

That said though, I didn't know how hot was safe to go. Would you suggest a brief lick of a flame or a longer heat? Obviously I don't want to get to the point where I start messing with the temper of the steel. I tried to stay a good bit away from that kind of heat.

 

[RussianRouter]

Would you suggest a brief lick of a flame or a longer heat?

A brief lick...eck! that wouldn'tlight a match

At least 20 seconds concentration all ound the nut,its the only way to release stubborn metal bolts,nuts,screws if all else fails.

Thats one helluva old router though and just wondering whether its worth messing about with it?

Can ya post a pic? cos I can't find one on the net?

 

[BigShot]

I'll give some of the other ideas a pop and then try the heat again before I resort to taking the router apart and going that way.

Worth it? I think so. Yes it's old, but it works and I'm the sort who think's it's as daft as it is wasteful to throw a working tool out because of something as silly as a stuck collet nut. Plus I'm kinda skint so chucking out something that can be fixed stings a bit.

I can't find a picture either, but the cursory glance I just had turns up the POF 500A - which looks pretty close. Not exactly a big monster of a thing, but it seems like it does the job - when the collet's not trying to convince me that the dovetail cuts I need to make on this quick and easy project I'm trying to do would be better beaded (and it really, really wouldn't).

 

[RussianRouter]

Eck! if I knew ya a while agoI'd of sent ya my old B&D router,must be as old as that router?



When and if ya heat it up be ready to give the spanner a sharp wack with a hammer,if this has been lying up for sometime chances are rust has got a foothold in the thread of the shaft?

 

[BigShot]

Who says Mancs and Scousers can't get on eh? Or are you just saying that to rub in the fact that you're not sending it? Haha!

It could be that it' gone rusty too. The rest of it (including the various metal bits on the table) appear to be in good nick so maybe not, but possibly. I'll be sure to keep an eye out for it and will be ready to give a sharp whack if I do resort to heating again.

 

[RussianRouter]

Sometime ago there was guy here in a Liverpool Thursday/Saturday market.
He was selling those Nu-Tool routers for £5 these had various pieces missing ie the handles bases ect and complete ones for £8,all working and new for the price they were not bad fo just hobbying or just general small routing jobs.

I bought one and its fine for cutting softwoods.

well wadda want for £8,that'll only get ya 3 beers?

 

[RussianRouter]

Who says Mancs and Scousers can't get on eh? Or are you just saying that to rub in the fact that you're not sending it? Haha!

I binned it,nothing wrong with it except it was a tad noisy.