Hanging an internal door hinge position?

[Woody Alan]

When hanging internal doors do you fit the leaf of the hinge (ball bearing 3" hinge) and leave the knuckle fully exposed or do you set the hinge in a bit more to align the pivot point of the hinge with the face of the door, and so reducing the opening radius fractionally. I hope that's easily understood.
With the 5" and 7" hinge rule is that to the centre of the hinges or the edges of the hinge?
I have hung several doors in the past, but with cheap steel butts that really don't show the difference, but these stainless hinges are part of a quality fit.

Cheers Alan

 

[speed]

i always just fit the leaf and leave the barings exposed, so only the leaf gets choped like a normal door,

we always fit hinges 7" down and 9" up onsite
thats 7" to the top line of hinge from top of door and 9'' up to the botton line of the bottom himge

 

[chippy1970]

I don't know where you got the 5" and 7" rule its 6" and 9" thats 6" down to the top of the top hinge and 9" up to the bottom of the bottom hinge.

The 6" down 9" up rule is what I learnt when I did my city & guilds apprenticeship about 18 years ago and I have never met a carpenter since who uses any other measurement but 6" and 9".

I dont know where all these 7" and 11" or 7" and 9" have come from but I do know that 6" and 9" are the traditional positions.

When marking out the hinge I flip the hinge back 2 front then push the knuckle against the door run a sharp knife around it and thats where it goes. With the newer ball bearing hinges I tend to slide them away from the knuckle slightly so it does not rub on the door when it swings.

 

[Gary]

I agree with chip 6 and 9 every time.

 

[Slim]

I agree with chip 6 and 9 every time.

Ooo... Kinky! :lol:

 

[Gary]

Ooo... Kinky! :lol:

Opps I didn't realise what I'd said.

 

[dirtydeeds]

my post went missing :shock:

so here goes again

the knuckle on a door hinge should always be fully exposed

the 6-9 rule apeared in the 1890s



prior to that the rule was exactly the same but different


"strike two lines across the stile to the edge of the door from the top and bottom rails and set your hinges at these points"


the reason was to avoid setting hinges into the tennons of the top and bottom rail



my guess is that in the 1890s with joinery shops being routinly machanised they standardasied on 6 and 9 inch rails





we have fogotten the original reason and the original rule but the 6-9 rule remains, its easy to remember





PS
anybody who tells you its "perspective for a normal height person" is an silly person talking bullshit

you dont have to check out the normal height for people in the 1890s to know its bullshit

 

[Woody Alan]

Interesting stuff. I got the 5 and 7 from some poking about on the net but it does strangely almost fit with my original hung doors. I will be fitting three hinges as these are heavy doors. DD I know you are against the perspective thing and reasonably think a practical answer is the source, but is it possible aesthetics have come into play to some extent here, or just a coincidence that the aesthetics of the way a door was built demanded the hinge position, and so the old adage if it looks right it is...In my case I like to follow tried and tested practice and thanks to all for their advice based on the education I missed, I will duly follow. I hope at some point to show some piccies of this project.

Alan

 

[dirtydeeds]

the middle hinge always goes in the centre (and always did) because the mid rail on a door is never central

(so originally no tennon problem)

unless its that hospital upper hinge set up




there is no doubt that asthetics plays a part in rail sizes

but the 6-9 inch rule is now so long established anything else looks wrong

i belive the 6-9 inch rule is also used in america


hinge positioning is not the same on the continent, they like full symetry

 

[Andy Pullen]

I was taught 6 down from top, 36 down from top and 9 up. The 36 is always close enough to center as makes no difference. Done several thousand over 20+ years like this and never had anyone say 'ooh your middle hinge is 1/2" out' and it saves having to mess about with remembering silly fractions. This applies to 3 & 4" hinges equally.
Cheers Andy

 

[andy king]

I was taught 6 down from top, 36 down from top and 9 up.

Hi Andy,

good advice, but I use an even easier one, on 6'6in doors. If they have 3 x 3inch hinges, such as a bathroom door where high humidity can sometimes bow the middle, if you measure from the top of the door and mark at 6in, 36in and 66in positions, marking the hinges below these marks and you end up with a perfectly centred hinge, (27in between leafs) plus the bottom hinge is 9in from the bottom.
This is assuming you don't have to trim the door for length of course.
It works the same for 4inch hinges, (setting them 26inches apart) although you do end up with the bottom hinge set 8inches from the bottom. Admittedly not the 6 & 9 I was taught, but not the end of the world!

Andy

 

[Majorlarf]

I have always fitted a hinge on the 6 & 9 rule.

we had a new building built last year at work & the "middle" hinge is set about a quarter of the way down from the top of the door apparrently this is the new norm. :?

 

[andy king]

Hi Majorlarf,

I was taught that hinges are used in this orientaion where high traffic is expected and the doors are going to be opened and closed very often.
Hospitals were mentioned earlier, offices are another situation. I've yet to see it in a domestic situation, save for lobbies and corridor entrances in apartment blocks etc.

Andy

 

[llangatwgnedd]

I was taught that hinges are used in this orientaion where high traffic is expected and the doors are going to be opened and closed very often.

Always wondered why the third hinge put approx 1/4 way down while waiting in hospital waiting room.

 

[Steve Maskery]

I was always taught 6 and 9, too but I do believe that other parts of the world (sorry can't remember where, prob read it in FWW) traditionally use 9 - 11. I bet there is no right or wrong to this, just accepted convention, although obviously it makes sense to avoid the end-gran of tenons.

The third hinge is handy for very heavy doors or very lightweight ones. We have some cheap fake-panel pressed skin doors in our house, they look fine when they are painted but they do move somewhat. One or two could really benefit from that third hinge.

As to where to put it, I believe the theory is that if it goes higher up it carries the weight of the door better. As the leaves are recessed into the frame, the screws in the upper hinge are under more tension than those in the lower hinge, so another high hinge shares the load. I've no idea if this is borne out by mathematics (it probably does - the centre of gravity of the door is above the lower hinge pushing it into the frame, but below the upper hinge, pulling it out), but I picked it up somewhere. I can say that I did my large and heavy garage doors this way 15 years ago and they haven't drooped a hair. I also happen to like what it looks like, but it may not suit the style of every door.

My 2p.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Pekka Huhta]

We had the same discussion on a local forum and everybody agreed that the rule is 1/6 from top and 1/6 from bottom. Which would lead to 13" on a 6'6" door.

It seems that practically all doors made on these corners of the world between 1890's and 1960's have been done with the same rule. Probably would look a bit strange if you have accustomed on 6" from the edge, but as far as I can tell it supports the door better that way.

Pekka

 

[George_N]

I've just looked at my office door (the building is about 10 years old) and the top hinge is 7" down, the bottom hinge is 8" uo and the third hinge is 17" down from the top. These aren't regular butt hinges though. They have relatively large knuckles and the hinge plates have rounded ends (ASSA stamped on them FWIW). I suspect the spacing was determined by the router jig used to cut the mortices.

 

[Blueyedboy]

There is no reg on where hinges go. The 9, 6 rule appeared on qi. The answer being the eyeline from the top hinge being further to the bottom. I have always done 7, 7. Reason being, many years ago I fitted a lot of doors on a site job. They were flush doors, I was asked to do 7, 7 on the hinges. With the latch in the middle, then the door could be hung on any side. Equal hinges and the latch always in the middle. Another reason, you can never make a mistake.

 

[twothumbs]

My tuppence worth is..................the 6/9 rule is about right but if it a panelled door then the hinges should align with the panels or slightly adjusted to suit any planted mouldings or what looks right. They should always be located to miss the tenons.

It used to be easy for positioning the third ‘middle’ hinge. It went in the middle to prevent warping on an exterior door or warping on cold / warm sided door leafs. For long enough fire doors were the same to prevent pulling in a fire. Nowadays with heavy doors the third hinge is located near to the top hinge to take the weight and stop the hinge dropping. It also prevents the overhead closer pulling the top hinge. The use of intumescent seals has largely overcome the heat warping in fire situations.

As for projection of the knuckle it is nowadays all done by full face or if it is a large knuckle possible half cover. It really depends on the hinges and how best it is to cut the recesses. It used to be that the hinges were set differently. Top set half, and bottom set full to allow for a vanity swing so the door swung slowly closed. It never sat open; very important in Victorian housing. Though I have seen old kitchen doors set the other way presumably so that they didn’t close on the servants walking through with trays. The other problem used to be with both pair and pair and a half hinges was that thwey were carefully set in line so they didn’t pull on each other with squeaks and the pins working out and binding. You cannot fault a decent hinge which has no play in it before you start.

With the use of proprietary door sets and expensive testing procedures the positions are largely set by the test locations.

 

[Blueyedboy]

Excellent post, not many people know about half set fitting for closing/opening doors. Good advice on keeping the hinges in line. I maintain one of the well known supermarkets, and regularly have to replace hinges, when they are not in line. Because one of them is closing against it's fitted angle, causing it to grind and pull apart.I