Handsawing joints

[Treechopper]

Can anyone give any tips on handsawing a joint? I have bought books watched you tube videos and trawled the internet i get all the theory but the results are frustratingly rubbish.

Did anyone else suffer this pain starting out? Will I have an epiphany moment or am i better off getting a band/tablesaw?

 

[xy mosian]

My biggest problem cutting joints by hand when I started was forgetting the width of the cut. This is known as the kerf, sorry if you knew that, make sure the kerf is on the scrap side of the line. A cross cut saw, on a stopped cut, will leave a kerf with almost an M shaped end. My aim, seldom achieved these days, is to split line with the point of the kerf nearest the side you want to keep.

If you get a handle on cutting joints by hand, then it will be easier to get good results from any future purchase of a machine.

Hope this helps.

xy

edit. Sorry treechopper I didn't spot your first post. Welcome, stick with it, have fun.

 

[Treechopper]

Thanks xy,

I have been cutting box/finger joints on pine and have got through about 10m of 10cm pieces. My main problem is going crosseyed looking at the knifeline and the saw then trying execute the cut. My results are either too loose, have gaps or are too tight. Its only since doing (attempting) woodwork i've realised how big 0.5mm is!!!

 

[Jacob]

...Will I have an epiphany moment ....

Perhaps. But more likely you will slowly get better at it the more you practice.
Practice practice!
Practice marking up with a square and a pencil (not a knife), practice cutting to ONE SIDE of the line (ideally you split the line in half leaving a trace on the finished edge).
Cut up a length of scrap into some equal sized slabs 3mm thick (or aim at 10mm if 3 is too precise).
Or join two boards at right angles. Then cut off the joined ends and do it again, and again.

NB box or finger joint is really a machine joint - do something simpler, or do dovetails which are no more difficult than finger joints (by hand).

 

[Jon the Bodger]

Have you tried setting up a big mirror to watch your own saw action? You can then check that your hand, wrist, elbow and shoulder are in a straight line giving a steam engine piston type action, or spot any other non-textbook action.

 

[Treechopper]

Practice marking up with a square and a pencil (not a knife), practice cutting to ONE SIDE of the line (ideally you split the line in half leaving a trace on the

This makes sense i have been getting confused over splitting knife lines pencil lines working to waste side etc. I'll give it a go

Thanks jacob

Jon i did try filming myself once (to look at my saw action) and i think it looked ok. I think i'm in the right ball park in terms of my cuts are reasonably straight but only good enough for knocking up a bit of junk... Not for anything of any aesthetic value.

Cheers

 

[Richard T]

To sum up a technique shown on a recent Woodwright's Shop episode, to make a so called "first class" saw cut, mark with a knife then deepen the cut. Then with knife or chisel pare back into the knife line at a shallow angle on the waste side. This leaves a shoulder to start the saw up against.
Another good tip, shown in the same programme, is having marked your line across and down both sides, cut across the top and all the way down the side facing you - down at an angle, only reaching the the far side of the top, then turn the wood around and cut down the other side letting the saw follow the cut on the other side. I have found this particularly useful in ripping down square to a cross cut when taking a corner out.
Basic stuff maybe, but I was glad to be reminded of it - I've got lots of those corners to cut out over the next few days and they need to be right.

 

[Richard T]

Though having said all that about knife scoring, it has been good practise for me to draw pencil lines whose waste side edges are the actual measurement and to practise sawing square up against that side of the line; leaving line intact. Thumb nail against saw (above teeth) is a good substitute for knifed and chiselled shoulder.

 

[Jacob]

Though having said all that about knife scoring, it has been good practise for me to draw pencil lines whose waste side edges are the actual measurement and to practise sawing square up against that side of the line; leaving line intact. Thumb nail against saw (above teeth) is a good substitute for knifed and chiselled shoulder.

That could be OK for a bench exercise but would be doomed to failure as a marking system. You'd have to decide both where and on which side each line should go and hence double the risk of error. You'd then have to decide on which side to saw the line and double the risk of error again!
Better to stick with pencil lines dead central, and attempt to remove the waste half of the line. This also means a thick pencil is usable - probably a good idea for a beginner.

 

[dh7892]

Jacob, can you talk me through your reasoning behind pencil rather than knife lines? I'm at the beginning of my hand sawing journey but I've found knife lines to be more accurate and you can then feel the blade locate into the cut.

A tip that I use from the Workshop Heaven site is to look in the reflection from the blade to make sure the cut is square. If the line of the wood doesn't look like it continues straight "through" the reflection then it's not square.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, can you talk me through your reasoning behind pencil rather than knife lines? I'm at the beginning of my hand sawing journey but I've found knife lines to be more accurate and you can then feel the blade locate into the cut.

A tip that I use from the Workshop Heaven site is to look in the reflection from the blade to make sure the cut is square. If the line of the wood doesn't look like it continues straight "through" the reflection then it's not square.

Pencil is quicker, easier and easily corrected if it's wrong. Knife creates another tool problem for a beginner. I'd strictly reserve knife marking for scoring shoulders especially on DTs, where a neat cut line is more or less essential, but avoid the knife otherwise.
Each to his own.
I've never had a saw shiny enough to try the reflection trick! I wouldn't waste too much time on it IIWY

PS I'd mark everything in pencil but then score with a knife where necessary as above. In other words it's not a marking knife it's a scoring knife. I think a lot of people may be creating problems for themselves by using knives for all marking.

 

[Richard T]

Well Jacob, cutting up to the line on the waste side is what I do, but then I s'pose I've done rather a lot of it - getting joints tight enough for timber frames was my baptism of fire and I don't s'pose it's always necessary to make things that tight. It is good practise though and I'm certainly still practising.

I've never had a saw shiny enough to try that trick either

 

[woodbloke]

Jacob, can you talk me through your reasoning behind pencil rather than knife lines? I'm at the beginning of my hand sawing journey but I've found knife lines to be more accurate and you can then feel the blade locate into the cut.

If you have any sense, I advise you for the sake of your sanity to disregard most of what this individual spouts...most of it (not all :roll: ) is complete and utter tosh and will not aid you in trying to do better joinery.

A previous post mentioned striking a line all the way round, this is the correct and most accurate way of marking out. In the sequence below, I'm going to cut this lump of mahogany in half. Firstly, mark the face side and face edge as shown, then placing the square only on these two datum faces, strike a deep...say again, deep line all the way round:

Then on the waste side of the line (X in the pic) make a shallow groove with a wide chisel, such that one side is the vertical knife line and the other is sloping,made by the chisel:

Then using a bench hook, drop the saw into the groove so the teeth are hard against the vertical side of the groove and carefully saw down. If the sawcut is accurate, the knife line cut will be seen (arrowed) all the way round on the face revealed:

I get extremely irritated :evil: :evil: when I see such blatantly poor advice given to someone trying to learn the basics in order to produce better work. Cutting to a pencil line never has been and never will be the right way to do the job...it might be of some interest to know that the individual in question has also been banned from another forum I frequent and was also banned from UKWorkshop at one time.

...and furthermore, this is the way I taught it in secondary schools for twenty years to eleven year olds!

Apologies for the rant - Rob

 

[studders]

...it might be of some interest to know that the individual in question has also been banned from another forum I frequent and was also banned from UKWorkshop at one time.

:roll: :roll: :roll:
Is this really relevant to sawing straight?
In another post you said everyone was entitled to their opinion, does that only apply when it agrees with yours?
There are many ways to skin a Cat, why is your way 'The right Way' and others 'tosh' ?

 

[Jacob]

.......
I get extremely irritated :.....

Really? Can't say I've noticed. Have you thought of counseling perhaps, or yoga?

NB I'm talking about working ways for working productive woodworkers. Not "school" ways for hobbyists who fiddle about making the occasional ornamental box . :lol:

 

[dh7892]

@Woodbloke That's how I've been doing it and it seems to work for me.

I'm well aware of the heated discussions that tend to follow Jacob's posts but, I'm a big boy and capable of making my own mind up about who's advice to follow and who's to ignore. Since I have a way of doing things that I'm reasonable happy with, I'm not particularly planning to switch back to pencil but I wanted to know what his thoughts were about it. I asked and he replied, can't see anything wrong with that.

Apart from the fact that I find it easier to follow a scored line with the saw, I also find it easier to mark with the knife. Particularly when projecting a line around two faces. You can just locate the knife in the line and slide the square up to it. with a pencil you have to look a bit more carefully.

Plus I really like my Japanese marking knives! A real joy to use.

 

[Jacob]

@Woodbloke That's how I've been doing it and it seems to work for me.

I'm well aware of the heated discussions that tend to follow Jacob's posts but, I'm a big boy and capable of making my own mind up about who's advice to follow and who's to ignore. Since I have a way of doing things that I'm reasonable happy with, I'm not particularly planning to switch back to pencil but I wanted to know what his thoughts were about it. I asked and he replied, can't see anything wrong with that.

Apart from the fact that I find it easier to follow a scored line with the saw, I also find it easier to mark with the knife. Particularly when projecting a line around two faces. You can just locate the knife in the line and slide the square up to it. with a pencil you have to look a bit more carefully.

Plus I really like my Japanese marking knives! A real joy to use.

Fair enough each to his own, as long as you don't get extremely irritated by people who do it differently!
Knife would not be practical for many things I make because of the complexity and sheer quantity of marking involved e.g. large windows with 40 or more panes. And I keep an eye open for working marks on old stuff I pull apart. Knife marks absolutely definite for DT shoulders, otherwise rarely seen (though of course they may have been removed). Awl marks more common, and pencil even more.

 

[woodbloke]

TC opened with..."Can anyone give any tips on handsawing a joint? I have bought books watched you tube videos and trawled the internet i get all the theory but the results are frustratingly rubbish.

Did anyone else suffer this pain starting out? Will I have an epiphany moment or am i better off getting a band/tablesaw? "

Is this really relevant to sawing straight?
In another post you said everyone was entitled to their opinion, does that only apply when it agrees with yours?
There are many ways to skin a Cat, why is your way 'The right Way' and others 'tosh' ?

Opinions is opinions (and everyone's entitled to 'em)...this is fact and if you want to produce better work, sawing to a pencil line to remove waste is the wrong technique...simple. I've had a quick delve into my library and have come up with a page from 'Woodwork' by Maynard and Jones, two of my lecturers at Shoreditch College in the 70's:

What's under discussion here is the removal of waste to handsaw a joint ( as TC was requesting) and if you have a look at the table it clearly states

Stage 1 - define the boundary line...knife, gauge or pencil in special cases (one example here is marking a chamfer, when pencil should be used)
Stage 2 - mark the waste to be removed
Stage 3 - saw
Stage4 - use plane or chisel to cut back to the boundary line

The use of the chisel to more clearly define the boundary line is not covered in this page, but it's something that I was taught and which I passed on. The book is excellent btw and now long out of print but if I had another trawl through I daresay I could find some more nice pics - Rob

 

[studders]

All well and good, and I use both methods - pencil and marking knife -dependent on what I'm making, but... that wasn't what I was referring to.

 

[woodbloke]

Fair enoughski, but that's what the OP wanted to know..."handsawing a joint" and I was simply pointing out to him the right way to to go about it to produce better quality joinery. Like yourself, there are occasions when using a pencil is 'good enough' and that's what I use too, but for the good stuff, it has to be a knife - Rob