First attempt at freehand sharpening!

[Racers]

Hi, Andy

I agree with you, I was just trying to wind up Jacob. :wink:


Pete

 

[Corneel]

I still fail to see where the time savings of free hand sharpening are. Of course it takes time to put the iron in the jig (a matter of seconds, when using an Eclipse and a stopblock). But as soon as the iron is in the jig you start to save time, because it's just easier and more comfortable to hold. And I guess, because it's easier to maintane a given angle, you won't loose as much material on each honing, so you have to grind less often.

 

[Karl]

This thread has turned into a real wrist-slitter :lol:

 

[Racers]

Hi, Karl

They always do.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

Basically chaps you will never get it so I'd stop worrying about it if I were you.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

...But as soon as the iron is in the jig you start to save time, because it's just easier and more comfortable to hold. And I guess, because it's easier to maintane a given angle, you won't loose as much material on each honing, so you have to grind less often.

The difference in time taken is trivial, however I don't believe your conclusions are sound.

The reduced faff of freehanding encourges more frequent touch up (for me, at least,) which can eliminate the need to ever redefine the bezel on a grinder except for damage repair if a single bezel configuration is adopted.

Except when using an extension such as the Veritas small blade holder, the length between fulcrum and the edge being sharpened is far less when using a jig, and so far less pressure can be applied, which slows jigged sharpening on most media.

I find my chisel handles far more comfortable to hold than any jig I have tried (if you don't perhaps you might leave the jig permanently attached. ) I find the cramped finger position necessary with a jig far less comfortable when sharpening irons too. I feel this also lends to a more relaxed and thus controlled action when sharpening freehand.

The length of iron which needs removing to achieve a fresh edge is the same whatever the method. Some save up the pain/grind for later (microbezels - either 2ary/3ary or single with a hollow grind) others keep abreast of it during touch up (single bevel - flat or Jacob-ite - jigged or freehand.) Which is appropriate depends on individual working practice (and access to power )
This isn't a jigged/unjigged issue.

 

[Jacob]

........
I find my chisel handles far more comfortable to hold than any jig I have tried (if you don't perhaps you might leave the jig permanently attached. ) I find the cramped finger position necessary with a jig far less comfortable when sharpening irons too. .......

Well yes that's one of the weird things about jigs - they are designed to hold tools and/or blades but non have handles and all make things more difficult to hold instead of less. :shock: A glaring omission IMHO. :lol:
A little opportunity here for an improved MK 4 series?
They haven't been around for that long so I guess the design will improve, if everybody hasn't given up on them in the meantime

 

[bugbear]

Basically chaps you will never get it so I'd stop worrying about it if I were you.

Does that mean you'll stop going on (and on) about it?

BugBear (more in hope than expectation)

 

[Jacob]

... the grinding angle is concave of course,...

Mine is flat (belt sander) or non existent - not needed on thin plane blades or smaller chisels which I hone only.

 

[Jacob]

Basically chaps you will never get it so I'd stop worrying about it if I were you.

Does that mean you'll stop going on (and on) about it?

BugBear (more in hope than expectation)

Not my thread. It's you lot going on and on about it! I'll reply if called upon. I do my best to explain but it's obviously not for everybody.

 

[Alf]

This thread has turned into a real wrist-slitter :lol:

There's no evidence that anyone has ever slit their wrists over a sharpening thread, but that's probably only because they couldn't decide how best to sharpen the edge with which to slit them...

And for Jacob, a honing guide with handles. They think of everything!

 

[Jacob]

....
And for Jacob, a honing guide with handles. They think of everything!

Interesting. Still looks crude, cumbersome and totally redundant but they've got the idea!

I still fail to see where the time savings of free hand sharpening are. ...

1 You don't have to buy a jig
2 You don't have to fit your thing into a jig and set it (assuming you have one as you may need several - and 2million little wedges with the Kell Mk wotsit)
3 You don't have to remove it afterwards
4 You don't have to flatten your stones EVER
5 Perhaps most importantly - you can easily do a little and often and keep your edge sharper for more of the time, as steps 1 -4 above are significant deterrents in this respect.
Hence the modern emphasis on steel which retains sharpness for longer - having gone through all that faff you don't want to have to repeat it too often. Takes longer to sharpen though. :lol: :lol:

PS I forgot to add item 4 (b) - freehand enables you to put a lot more welly into it - fast and furious if required, hence inherently faster.

 

[bugbear]

I'll reply if called upon.

AKA always wanting the last word.

BugBear (laying a cunning trap)

 

[Jacob]

I'll reply if called upon.

AKA always wanting the last word.

BugBear (laying a cunning trap)

Not wishing to have the last word - but BB if you do have a eureka moment and the fog lifts a bit then please let us know. It's only a matter of time and practice so don't give up!

 

[Sgian Dubh]

1 Flat bevel and edge at 30º
2 Rounded over bevel hence edge angle higher
3 Rounded under bevel edge stays at 30º.
The shape of this bevel is irrelevant except that it makes sharpening easier as compared to aiming for a perfect flat one.

I see what you're saying now Jacob. You just create a curved end, convex in profile, but one with a longish radius. It's not really curved under.

... the grinding angle is concave of course,...

Mine is flat (belt sander) or non existent - not needed on thin plane blades or smaller chisels which I hone only.

Of course. It depends what tool you use to form the grinding angle. After starting a small fire in the extraction system one time using the belt on the linisher I decided to stop using that tool for the job, and went back to the grindstone, ha, ha. And I guess I trained too long ago because we didn't talk about primary and secondary bevels back then: we used the terms grinding angle and honing angle.

I think I'll stick to honing a flat on the tip of the blade rather going for this curved deal you're describing. Slainte.

 

[Corneel]

Well you're probably right on every point Dunbar :lol: , but I wonder about this. Do you hold the handle of the chisel when freehand honing? To me that feels like every little tremble in my hands creates big variations in the angle. So I hold the chisel lower on the iron part and that feels slippery and unsecure, but it is easier to hold the angle.

With chisels I can see the time savings of freehand honing. With planes, most time is lost on getting the iron out of the plane, removing the chipbreaker, and after honing assembling everything again and readjusting the plane. Putting the blade in a simple jig like the Eclipse is neglectable. And plane irons don't come with a handle...

 

[Jacob]

...It's not really curved under.

It's rounded but lies under the edge angle. Just a term to distinguish it from the dreaded rounding over

 

[Jacob]

..... Do you hold the handle of the chisel when freehand honing? To me that feels like every little tremble in my hands creates big variations in the angle. So I hold the chisel lower on the iron part and that feels slippery and unsecure, but it is easier to hold the angle.

The further up the handle the better the grip, the steadier the angle and the better the control. That's what handles are for.

With chisels I can see the time savings of freehand honing. With planes, most time is lost on getting the iron out of the plane, removing the chipbreaker, and after honing assembling everything again and readjusting the plane. Putting the blade in a simple jig like the Eclipse is neglectable. And plane irons don't come with a handle...

But they are big and easier to hold. And freehand makes cambering dead easy.

See the Grimtech Laboratories MKII jig for a plane blade handle idea.

 

[Corneel]

1 You don't have to buy a jig
2 You don't have to fit your thing into a jig and set it (assuming you have one as you may need several - and 2million little wedges with the Kell Mk wotsit)
3 You don't have to remove it afterwards
4 You don't have to flatten your stones EVER
5 Perhaps most importantly - you can easily do a little and often and keep your edge sharper for more of the time, as steps 1 -4 above are significant deterrents in this respect.
Hence the modern emphasis on steel which retains sharpness for longer - having gone through all that faff you don't want to have to repeat it too often. Takes longer to sharpen though. :lol: :lol:

PS I forgot to add item 4 (b) - freehand enables you to put a lot more welly into it - fast and furious if required, hence inherently faster.

1. Eclipse is about 10 euro. I can handle that.
2. Eclipse is a brilliant piece of kit, no need for wotsit's. Doing it leasurally it takes about 30 seconds. I can handle that.
3. Seconds, again, no need to worry about.
4. Waterstones need to be flattened from time to time, no way around that when you are not a Zen master who spends a full year (!) on learning to sharpen. But flattening is no trouble either and saves a lot of time when you go from a coarser to a finer grit.
4b. Welly? What's that? But with the Eclipse again, I can put the same amount of pressure on the iron, because I can also hold on to the handle of the chisel, no need to hold the jig, so the jig doesn't need handles either.
5. Because 1-4 take so little time, there is no reason not to hone as often as a freehander.
6. Because by the time the iron is in the jig everything becomes effortless, so you (or me at least) save time on the actual honing procedure. Especially when I want to remove a nick, the jig saves a lot of time.
7. Because you don't need to learn a new technique, you really save a huge amount of time and a lot of frustration to try woodworking with clumsily sharpened edges. That's 10 euro well spend.

I love this thread :twisted: . In a wicked kind of way. I see the benefits of freehand sharpening, but really it is NOT easy. Especially touching up an edge or removing a nick or trying to keep a shoulderplane blade straight.

 

[Corneel]

..... Do you hold the handle of the chisel when freehand honing? To me that feels like every little tremble in my hands creates big variations in the angle. So I hold the chisel lower on the iron part and that feels slippery and unsecure, but it is easier to hold the angle.

The further up the handle the better the grip, the steadier the angle and the better the control. That's what handles are for.

Hmm, I´ll give it a try. I just didn´t feel secure last time I tried.