Festool Prices

[Freetochat]

Well, done the deed yesterday and bought my first Festool tool. The Domino. At the end of the day, I bought from a local dealer, and without giving too much away, am satisfied with what I paid. I also bought the kit of dowels and full set of cutters. My first impression of the kit is nicely put together in systania boxs. Even an interactive CD Rom included to give you an idea of using the tool. Down side is that the trim stop and spacing stop is not included and that makes another £45 to £50 to be paid. From what I can see, the trim stop is an important item for cutting end grain, for accuracy and safety. I have a couple of hours this morning set aside to 'play'.

 

[Waka]

Good to see someone else on the Festool slope, I'm sure you won't regret the purchase.

When you get it going' give us some WIP pic's of it in action.

 

[Freetochat]

Good to see someone else on the Festool slope, I'm sure you won't regret the purchase.

When you get it going' give us some WIP pic's of it in action.

I had my 'play' this morning and will use it in anger this weekend, but this is a good tool, and I can see that it will take over many jobs that I would do with a BJ. The dowels are solid beech (no storage swelling problems). I questioned cost of dowels, but having looked at them, knocking those out with a P/T and router to roundover will be an easy job, and a use for the offcuts and stained wood etc. In use it is very much cleaner and less dusty then the BJ. Vibration is less and I found it simpler to get accuracy then the BJ. This I would say is due to plunge drilling rather than a circular saw movement. Ultimately for me the sparkle was a centre line across the joint, two hols drilled and a loose tongue M&T acheived, no matter whether mitre or butt, with double tennons taking not much longer. For the purist handtool worker this would be against the grain, but for those that machine, a real timesaver with excellent results.

I was worried about the purchase price and the ongoing cost for dowels and bits, but I think this will be covered. As mentioned before, the dowels will easily be homemade, and the drill bits are no more expensive than router bits.

As for getting the Festool desease, I can see how easily it can be contracted, but my set of yellow tools have a few more years left in them but who knows in the future.

 

[engineer one]

interesting to see the concern about discounts on festo.

the retailers are all concerned about trying to earn a living
with dewalt in particular, because the vast discounts that some
can get but not others.

from what i understand, minden have suggested to retailers that it
is better for all of them to keep within a limited discount range, and
thus allow them to make a decent profit. they also have to stock
a decent range of products and pay for it pretty promptly so
large discounts would cause them major profit problems.

finally remember that there are few shed selling festo, so there
is more chance of getting a proper service from the retailer.


worth price and the fight to get a proper product that does what
it says on the tin. on this forum we spend a lot of time asking
for quality products, then puppy about the price we have to pay. :twisted:

can't have quality and deep discounts. :lol: :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

I constantly knock my powertools off the work bench on a fairly regular basis, usually I get my feet wrapped round the cord and off they go. All the quality trade tools can handle this abuse, makita, dewalt, etc.
Only one to have broken was the festool router, cost about £120 to repair and even then they sent it back with the alloy bottom half on back to front so the swith was on the wrong side.
Just my little story, so i'm afraid festool doesn't get me all gooy-eyed!!!

 

[Freetochat]

from what i understand, minden have suggested to retailers that it is better for all of them to keep within a limited discount range, and thus allow them to make a decent profit. they also have to stock a decent range of products and pay for it pretty promptly so
large discounts would cause them major profit problems.

paul :wink:

I understand the desire to keep a brand value, remember Tesco's and Levi's, but when the manufacturer maintains such strict controls, we all end up paying more due to the lack of the competitive maket. And from what I hear, Festool has a habit of not supplying anyone who goes against their policy. Is that not price fixing?

 

[engineer one]

interesting comments, but a misunderstanding about price fixing.

what is illegal within the EU is a number of manufacturers getting
together and fixing prices for similar products or commodities.

a manufacturer can show to the EU commission that having a select
band of dealers who can be convinced to provide a better service
is in the best interests of the customer and the manufacturer/retailer.
it has and does happen in the watch industry with certain famous
swiss brands.

whether all festo tools are hard wearing in all situations is an
interesting aside. however i tend to think they are made with accuracy
in mind, and also in most cases some extra attention to dust extraction which is missing from most other brands. i am certain that many repairs
can come back slightly wrong, but am also sure that minden would
have sorted the problem if informed.

anyway think about the prices of LN and LV items, they too are not
exactly given vast discounts. what minden/festo have in mind, is
to have a small number of dealers who can give and get full support
rather than have end users complaining about being sold the wrong
tools.

anyway no i am not employed by festo or minden, but do know the guys
at jaycee well, and have seen how the brand has helped them make
money retailing again rather than just standing still to compete
with the sheds, and internet companies who do not let you
try before you buy. :roll: :twisted: :lol:

paul :wink:

 

[Jake]

what is illegal within the EU is a number of manufacturers getting
together and fixing prices for similar products or commodities.

a manufacturer can show to the EU commission that having a select
band of dealers who can be convinced to provide a better service
is in the best interests of the customer and the manufacturer/retailer.
it has and does happen in the watch industry with certain famous
swiss brands.

A manufacturer can have a selective distribution system, i.e. refuse to supply Tescos etc, if the products are complex, luxury, etc in favour of a retail network that meets qualitative standards such as for service and technical knowledge of the goods being sold.

That does not mean that said manufacturer/distributor can attempt to exert control over pricing within that network - that would be illegal and potentially attract fines for both the retailer and (more so) the manufacturer/distributor of 10% of three years worth of their turnover .

RRPs are acceptable usually, but anything beyond that (such as telling retailers what discounts from RRP are acceptable, let alone enforcing that by refusing to supply a retailer who did not comply with such instructions/hints/etc) is both unlawful and illegal. Having any part in an agreement (formal or informal) which attempts to fix prices is a criminal offence.

Altogether a very risky way of trying to keep your business afloat in the face of more efficient competition.

 

[engineer one]

jake i am sure that you are right in substance, but i am also sure
that minden and festo would have taken proper advice to ensure that
they stayed on the correct side of the line.

i do not necessarily believe that festo are inefficient, and of course
it is true that to many of us are concerned by the decline in standards
of previously prestige brands.

anyway, it is an expensive process complaining, and what would it
really do for us all???? :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[Jake]

jake i am sure that you are right in substance, but i am also sure
that minden and festo would have taken proper advice to ensure that
they stayed on the correct side of the line.

Who knows, I wasn't talking specifics. But if what Rutlands said to me was true, that wouldn't be the case. And if what you said above:

from what i understand, minden have suggested to retailers that it
is better for all of them to keep within a limited discount range, and
thus allow them to make a decent profit.

was in fact true, that wouldn't be the case either

i do not necessarily believe that festo are inefficient, and of course
it is true that to many of us are concerned by the decline in standards
of previously prestige brands.

Let's leave Festool aside, because I don't know the facts there, just some hearsay.

Generally, though, it is inefficient in economic terms to have retailer colluding with manufacturers to set prices at a level higher than would the case in a free market. Letting retailers compete on price does not necessarily mean a lessening in standards, the manufacturer/distributor has control over those, and indeed over the price at which he sells to retailers. The fact that illegal anti-competitive behaviour can be used to increase profit margins doesn't help improve standards of manufacture, it just increases profits. It doesn't benefit anyone but the parties involved in the illegal activity.

Remember that the selective distribution can be justified, to maintain levels of service, just not a control on the prices at which goods are sold through those outlets.

anyway, it is an expensive process complaining, and what would it
really do for us all???? :roll:

It costs the price of sending a letter to the OFT. I nearly did after the Rutlands incident, but I got lazy and couldn't be bothered.

 

[tombo]

i recently bought ts55 ebq saw and ct22 extractor from a local tool show at grahams machinery in chester. I knew i was going to buy these items so i printed out the current prices from axminster before i went along.

When i went to pay I was given the price of the saw but it was more expensive than axminster. The festool rep near had a fit and said axminster shouldn't be selling at that price he even called head office, but he had to concede and they matched the price. I Mentioned that i thought that this sort of thing was price fixing and could be illegal. He then indiscreetly blurted out that we have all sorts of agreements that mean its ok for them to do this.

A week or so later my extractor was delivered and the next day i was browsing the festool web site and i see that the hose holder should have been a standard fit for extractors after the date of my purchase. So i called TTS the uk festool distributer to ask for the hose holder. The girl on the phone was very helpful, but was unaware of the change in the product. She called me back to ask what price i had paid for the extractor and when i told her she said that that was the old price but as a goowill gesture they would sell it to me at half price. I fail to see how the price i paid was relevant as that transaction was private between me and grahams machinery ... I got the hose holder FOC a few days ago.

conclusions.. well i am very happy with my tools, my opinion of festool staff is not so good they try but dont know their products. As to possible price fixing what do you think.

Tom

 

[tim]

I bought a few Festool things in the last few months from a dealer and got 20% discount (off list price) on all the items - I thought that this was the norm?

BTW what is the price of the hose holder please, tombo, its not in the price list as far as I can see?

Thanks

Tim

 

[Freetochat]

Just to add to the discussion, when I bought my product, I got a good deal in comparison with the prices on the web. However, my source did ask that I tell no one the price I paid or reveal who they were because if found out they would have difficulties with their supplies if it became known.

What is that called?

 

[JFC]

Stolen goods :lol: seriously if your a good customer you are going to get the better deals as they know they have you for life .

 

[Freetochat]

Stolen goods :lol: seriously if your a good customer you are going to get the better deals as they know they have you for life .

Good point, I didn't look at it that way.

 

[tombo]

Tim,

this is the holder i think it costs about £40

http://www.festool.co.uk/artikel/artikel_weiterleiten.cfm?id=199

Tom

 

[RogerS]

It costs the price of sending a letter to the OFT. I nearly did after the Rutlands incident, but I got lazy and couldn't be bothered.

Jake, I think you would have wasted your stamp. I raised this issue via email and this was the reply I got back.

Thank you for your recent email to the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) dated 26th October 2006.

If it is suspected that a price-fixing agreement exists, the Office of Fair Trading has power to investigate. However, the Act requires that a certain level of evidence suggestive that an infringement has occurred must be obtained before a formal process of investigation may begin. An allegation by an individual is not in itself sufficient.

Similar or the same prices can often result from practices such as price-leadership whereby a number of companies supplying the same products independently choose to match the prices charged by one or other of the suppliers of the product; Unlike price-fixing which involves a restrictive agreement, price leadership as a result of voluntary and independent commercial decision making is not unlawful. Although identical prices might seem to suggest that companies are coming together to agree on the prices of their products, this is not necessarily the case and some form of evidence to suggest that the pricing behaviour of the companies is as a result of some form of agreement is required before formal action can be taken under the Act.

Retailers are free to set prices based on their own independent commercial decisions. We encourage consumers to 'shop around' for the best deals, whenever practicable, since prices do normally vary from shop to shop and place to place.

 

[p111dom]

This is still going on. I have written the following to the office of fair trading.

Having being the market to buy a certain type of powertool (a Festool Domino jointing machine) I checked the internet to find the best price however virtually every dealer is selling this item at the same price(£511 inc vat +/- £1). I went down to my local dealer who quoted exactly the same price. I asked for a discount but was told that the company or distributor wont allow them to discount any of Festools range of tools. He often gives me upto a 20% on virtually every other brand of tool. He said it's the same for all the suppliers. They have been told by Festool head office that they can discount accessories by up to 10% but no discount is allowed on the tools themselves. The traders have been told that if they are caught selling below the rrp then they will not be supplied with any more tools in the future. The fact that all the traders are selling at the same price appears to back this up. An discount apparently has to be o.k.'s with Festools head office. Surely this is at least uncompetitive behaviour and blatant price fixing not to mention the blackmailing of the traders.
What can be done about this?

 

[tnimble]

Good on you! Now see if the same happens as in Australia, if they pick it on on your complaint alone (or now fund that they the complaints is not on its own about this brand.

 

[chippy1970]

I have bought a few Festool bits and always got some discount.

I was offered a Kapex by a Festool dealer a while back for £750 with a free extra blade, when they were selling for £860 in most places.

I didnt go for it I bought a Makita ls1013 instead nearly as good for half the price