Electric vehicles

[Vulcan]

I thought it was established that the increased fire risk was actually a decreased fire risk?

“Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20161026-how-liars-create-the-illusion-of-truth
Nearly all the myths made up about electric cars have been disproven but it doesn’t stop those with an agenda repeating them. One of the really obvious ones is “there’s no infrastructure”. If this were true, how would the 1 million EV’s on the road in the UK continue to drive around? The simple answer as reported in the media is that 93% of current EV owners charge at home, and have all the “infrastructure” they need. What those that don’t like EV’s should say is, there aren’t enough chargers or something similar. But they don’t say this because it doesn’t sound bad enough. If you’re going to tell a lie make it big and make it simplistic, it has more impact on those that can’t think for themselves.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Amusing that "How liars create the illusion of truth" is published by the BBC.

 

[stuart little]

Strikes me that a lot of people spend a lot of time looking for reasons not to get an EV, when what they really mean is they don't like change and want to stick with ICE. It's been shown very conclusively that the fire risk of an EV is lower than that of an ICE. It's also been shown (and here I'm talking from personal experience as well as received wisdom) that EV's are cheaper to run, have lower servicing costs, are more reliable and easier to drive and despite their initial cost being higher than an ICE, they repay that pretty rapidly in reduced fuel costs at average milage. The batteries are 95% recyclable using current methods, so that needn't be a worry.
With modern chargers and constantly improving batteries, they will continue to get even better and I for one need to get some blood back in my legs and have a pee after sitting in a car for more than a couple of hundred miles on a long trip, so a coffee and a stroll while the battery gets topped up is no hardship.
I accept that they (at the moment) are not suitable for every application (diggers in remote areas and so on) but for virtually all the rest of us, who just need a car to get from A to B, they are an improvement on ICE. Also of course, if things pan out as they should, they should one day be the only option, so better get used to the idea.

In 34 years of living here, I only know of 1 vehicle fire on this estate, which was 3 weeks ago involving a 'ganky' ICE VW Golf (engine bay).
I've a v.good reason not to buy an EV - I don't drive any more! I 'run' a cat nowadays, much cheaper (so far)

 

[Crazy Dave]

“Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20161026-how-liars-create-the-illusion-of-truth
Nearly all the myths made up about electric cars have been disproven but it doesn’t stop those with an agenda repeating them. One of the really obvious ones is “there’s no infrastructure”. If this were true, how would the 1 million EV’s on the road in the UK continue to drive around? The simple answer as reported in the media is that 93% of current EV owners charge at home, and have all the “infrastructure” they need. What those that don’t like EV’s should say is, there aren’t enough chargers or something similar. But they don’t say this because it doesn’t sound bad enough. If you’re going to tell a lie make it big and make it simplistic, it has more impact on those that can’t think for themselves.

As an EV owner I was once nearly stranded 80 odd miles from home unable to find an available working charger. I spent hours on ZapMap trying to find an available charger within my remaining range. In the end I crawled to a pub (yes I know I usually crawl away from a pub) to use a charger in their carpark that had just become available, the anxiety of trying to get there before some else does and not driving too fast as to use all my remaining electricity was almost too much to bare.

So when I say that the infrastructure isn't there you can take it from me, it isn't.

On a positive note things are improving now but slowly.

 

[Vulcan]

So when I say that the infrastructure isn't there you can take it from me, it isn't.

I believe you mean a lack of public chargers. “Infrastructure” infers everything required to charge an EV and that isn’t the case.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/storie...ries/can-grid-cope-extra-demand-electric-cars

 

[Ollie78]

Strikes me that a lot of people spend a lot of time looking for reasons not to get an EV, when what they really mean is they don't like change and want to stick with ICE. It's been shown very conclusively that the fire risk of an EV is lower than that of an ICE. It's also been shown (and here I'm talking from personal experience as well as received wisdom) that EV's are cheaper to run, have lower servicing costs, are more reliable and easier to drive and despite their initial cost being higher than an ICE, they repay that pretty rapidly in reduced fuel costs at average milage. The batteries are 95% recyclable using current methods, so that needn't be a worry.
With modern chargers and constantly improving batteries, they will continue to get even better and I for one need to get some blood back in my legs and have a pee after sitting in a car for more than a couple of hundred miles on a long trip, so a coffee and a stroll while the battery gets topped up is no hardship.
I accept that they (at the moment) are not suitable for every application (diggers in remote areas and so on) but for virtually all the rest of us, who just need a car to get from A to B, they are an improvement on ICE. Also of course, if things pan out as they should, they should one day be the only option, so better get used to the idea.

I have no problem with electric cars as such, they are great, they perform amazingly and are cheap to run etc.
I do have some issue with suggesting they are eco friendy and the fact that the governments around the world are promoting their use when infrastructure is not capable of sustaining it yet.
I also have issue with poor people being punished for not being able to afford "eco" vehicles with low emmission zones.
In a way being ecological is about keeping things going a long time, the initial investment cost of manufacturing something is its biggest environmental impact so keeping a car for 30 years is probably more planet friendly than buying one every 3.

Ollie

 

[Vulcan]

I thought it was established that the increased fire risk was actually a decreased fire risk?

New EV batteries in development are even less likely to catch fire so we should be concentrating on the positives.

https://batteriesnews.com/battery-electric-vehicles-safer-alternative-reduced-fire-risks/
https://ctif.org/news/new-revolutio...ithium-ion-ev-fires-ten-minutes-minimal-water

 

[John Brown]

Amusing that "How liars create the illusion of truth" is published by the BBC.

Whatever you may think, I'd much rather believe the BBC than some random person on Facebook or Twitter/X.
Or someone on a woodworking forum, for that matter. I have been saddened to see so much drivel spouted on these forums in the last few years. Yes, some of it by me, I expect..

 

[paulrbarnard]

In 34 years of living here, I only know of 1 vehicle fire on this estate, which was 3 weeks ago involving a 'ganky' ICE VW Golf (engine bay).
I've a v.good reason not to buy an EV - I don't drive any more! I 'run' a cat nowadays, much cheaper (so far)

Similarly the only vehicle fire I have first hand knowledge of was an old fiesta ICE. Daughter’s boyfriend bought it, had it serviced, drove to McDonalds and it completely burnt out.

 

[Cobbs]

I have no problem with electric cars as such, they are great, they perform amazingly and are cheap to run etc.
I do have some issue with suggesting they are eco friendy and the fact that the governments around the world are promoting their use when infrastructure is not capable of sustaining it yet.
I also have issue with poor people being punished for not being able to afford "eco" vehicles with low emmission zones.
In a way being ecological is about keeping things going a long time, the initial investment cost of manufacturing something is its biggest environmental impact so keeping a car for 30 years is probably more planet friendly than buying one every 3.

Ollie

You make some good points. They are not as eco friendly as one might wish, but I do think they are better in respect of not spewing out CO2 and other gases, with all their attendant problems and given that global warming is our biggest existential threat right now, that's a big point in EV's favour.
The number of public charging points is also an issue, but is being addressed more and more quickly in most areas and as has been pointed out by others, most people charge at home. Also, the actual energy is getting more and more likely to come form renewables as the years go by.
I agree that it's hard on people who need a car in low emission zones, but I think that is as much down to government policy as anything else - there's no reason for us in the UK, one of the richer countries, not to help with subsidies in that regard. As well as that, the prices of EV's are dropping and the second hand market will grow over time. In the long run, what with autonomous vehicles hopefully getting closer to reality, most people will not need to own a car just to let it sit unused for most of its life, but will be able to order one up when they need it.
Not sure where you're coming from with thinking an EV needs to be replaced every 3 years...

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Whatever you may think, I'd much rather believe the BBC than some random person on Facebook or Twitter/X.
Or someone on a woodworking forum, for that matter. I have been saddened to see so much drivel spouted on these forums in the last few years. Yes, some of it by me, I expect..

Whatever you may think, I'd much rather believe the BBC than some random person on Facebook or Twitter/X.
Or someone on a woodworking forum, for that matter. I have been saddened to see so much drivel spouted on these forums in the last few years. Yes, some of it by me, I expect..

I think it's got to point that the random person on facebook is probably more truthful. The BBC outlived its remit decades ago.

 

[paulrbarnard]

I think it's got to point that the random person on facebook is probably more truthful. The BBC outlived its remit decades ago.

I completely agree the BBC lost impartially and objectively some time ago but there are some seriously deranged posters on the various socials.

 

[John Brown]

I think it's got to point that the random person on facebook is probably more truthful. The BBC outlived its remit decades ago.

The thing is that even the worst newspaper in the country has to be a bit careful about publishing outright lies, because they can be sued. Mr and Mrs Facebook-Twitter post something blatantly incorrect, and it's half way round the world before they've taken their finger off the touchscreen.

 

[Lefley]

“Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20161026-how-liars-create-the-illusion-of-truth
Nearly all the myths made up about electric cars have been disproven but it doesn’t stop those with an agenda repeating them. One of the really obvious ones is “there’s no infrastructure”. If this were true, how would the 1 million EV’s on the road in the UK continue to drive around? The simple answer as reported in the media is that 93% of current EV owners charge at home, and have all the “infrastructure” they need. What those that don’t like EV’s should say is, there aren’t enough chargers or something similar. But they don’t say this because it doesn’t sound bad enough. If you’re going to tell a lie make it big and make it simplistic, it has more impact on those that can’t think for themselves.

Exposed: Child labour behind smart phone and electric car batteries

 

[John Brown]

Exposed: Child labour behind smart phone and electric car batteries

This is terrible, if true, but it doesn't make electric cars bad. There's no intrinsic property of cobalt that is destroyed if not mined by children in horrendous conditions.
Or is there? Maybe I've missed something.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Exposed: Child labour behind smart phone and electric car batteries

https://impacttransform.org/en/families-income-child-labour-cobalt/#:~:text=Off%20Hunger%20%2D%20IMPACT-,Families%20Depend%20on%20Income%20from%20Child%20Labour%20in,Mines%20to%20Stave%20Off%20Hunger&text=IMPACT's%20new%20research%20reveals%20how,struggling%20to%20make%20ends%20meet.

The sad reality is they do it willingly because they have no other source of income. Mining is one of the highest paid child labour jobs in DRC. The issue here isn’t the Cobalt mining it is the poverty that makes the work the only option for many families.

 

[Lefley]

So true, but when we see pictures of guards with machine guns at all these mines. Wether, cobalt, gold, diamonds, it's a lot of organized crime. And when they are mining in shafts , the smaller the shaft the quicker and faster they can follow seams of minerals. So a small person is a cheaper size hole. It's very sad. And with Non-Africans controlling a lot of these sites in Africa, we know how they view human rights. Disposables!

 

[Vulcan]

98% of cobalt used in batteries is a by product of copper mining. Nobody seemed to care when they bought a laptop, tablet, camera or mobile phone. Will you stop flying as well, as some modern passenger aircraft rely on large lithium batteries?

https://www.cobaltinstitute.org/abo...lt is mined across the,it into a usable form.
Then again, it seems the issue is being addressed for electric vehicles. But when zero % of an EV battery contains cobalt I suspect the fact will persist and people will still buy laptops and phones.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Sc...ake-better-lithium-ion-battery-without-cobalt

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Poverty drives exploitation - I little doubt the unacceptable conditions under which some cobalt miners work.

Without trying to find some detailed analysis (any figures are unlikely to be reliable or easily accessible) I suspect that the exception is being used to prove the conclusion:

• the demand for (in this case) cobalt is both material and increasing. I doubt that manual labour has any realistic chance of mining the quantities required for global production
• mining using crude third world technologies is unlikely to be effective in maximising the product yield for an scarce and costly element
• the link provided by Vulcan seems to demonstrate the implausibility of the proposition that world cobalt supply is reliant on child labour

I am not sure what the motivation is of those who publish this sort of nonsense - a misguided belief they are right, to generate donations, to see their name in "print", malicious ...........

 

[Spectric]

So when I say that the infrastructure isn't there you can take it from me, it isn't.

What about all the terraced houses where the front door opens onto the pavement, you cannot trail charging cables across a pavement and fitting a kerbside post charger outside every house is going to take some time and if they all need to use a local public charging point then there will be queues .