John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
A lot of people keep talking about hydrogen, so why do you think it's not being pursued?
Electric vehicles
- Thread starter Woodchips2
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sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
I'm... really not sure that's entirely true. Even ignoring the differences in transport and storage of liquid hydrogen vs gasoline, there are major differences in the way engines burn hydrogen, including energy density issues. I'm assuming we're not talking about fuel cells, as that's yet another (different) kettle of fish.
It's old news now but the big thing to me is how Tesla - in the process of building their EV brand - has adopted disruptive technologies like the gigapress. Manufacturing cars with a one or two piece injection moulded aluminium chassis simplifies logistics and shortens manufacturing times so radically that no manufacturer sticking with traditional designs stands a chance against them. They are reducing costs steadily and forcing down the market price so that the traditional automakers won't be able to make a profit.
We will see many car companies go to the wall.
For all it's early lead with the Leaf, Nissan is so far behind the state of the art that it's business in China is effectively bankrupt because the Chinese won't buy them. Toyota likewise started well with the Prius but now has nothing competitive just the same promises that it has been trotting out for a decade without a single competitive EV to sell.
Battery tech is advancing rapidly. Watch BYD and CATL.
The idea of converting existing designs of cars to hydrogen or ethanol engines is rather irrelevant when tesla's tech will allow them to undercut legacy car manufacturing.
I've driven a tesla. I didn't especially like it as a comfortable car, but power, simplicity and long term reliably / low cost of ownership as the batteries steadily improve will be hard to ignore.
We will see many car companies go to the wall.
For all it's early lead with the Leaf, Nissan is so far behind the state of the art that it's business in China is effectively bankrupt because the Chinese won't buy them. Toyota likewise started well with the Prius but now has nothing competitive just the same promises that it has been trotting out for a decade without a single competitive EV to sell.
Battery tech is advancing rapidly. Watch BYD and CATL.
The idea of converting existing designs of cars to hydrogen or ethanol engines is rather irrelevant when tesla's tech will allow them to undercut legacy car manufacturing.
I've driven a tesla. I didn't especially like it as a comfortable car, but power, simplicity and long term reliably / low cost of ownership as the batteries steadily improve will be hard to ignore.
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
I'm only talking about the distribution.
The user vehicles are not there.
Neither is the green electricity generation - which applies to EVs to - easy to forget that EVs are quite pointless so far, except for lowering pollution.
I worked on a system that did something like that 30 years ago. It was for South Africa. When your car got hijacked you waited for it to get a bit down the road, hide yourself and press the disable transmitter. It killed the engine and the hijackers typically abandoned the vehicle.
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
Neither's the distribution (hint: gasoline does not need to be transported at -250C).
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Splitting hairs. Hint: same wagons, different tanks.
worn thumbs
Established Member
If it was close enough to fall within the definition of "prior art" for patenting purposes,you might be figuring on the Christmas card lists of several major car makers-if you let them know.
On the topic of hydrogen,it isn't just transporting the stuff.The parts of the vehicle it comes into contact with may well suffer hydrogen embrittlement.Which could lead to breakages and leaks.
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
Aren't fuel cells the only option, if you want to buy a hydrogen fuelled car?
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
Different tanks, different handling requirements, different safety issues. So.. basically a completely different delivery fleet.
Handling an (admittedly flammable) liquid at ambient temperature vs handling a (highly flammable) liquid at 20 Kelvin is just slightly different. It also goes "boom" more easily than gasoline.
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
Practically yes. You can use hydrogen in an internal combustion engine but it's very inefficient.
The hydrogen is probably safer to transport than the gasoline, gasoline will spill and burn but the hydrogen will rapidly expand and dissipate.
Sachakins
The most wasted of days is one without woodwork
The Liverpool City Region Metro Mayor has already invested in buying a fleet of 20 Hydrogen busses.
So far only 6 been delivered.. they ran for less than a couple of weeks. Then the worldwide hydrogen supply market collapsed, and its been a few months before they started to reappear..
So Hydrogen is more at the mercy of global production than oil or electricity.
The promise is when the UK become a Hydrogen supplier all will be well.
Sorry but it will be a private industry and sell to the highest bidder. And that ignores thefact that theUK is years away from being a major player in the Hydrogen market,if ever.....
Sachakins
The most wasted of days is one without woodwork
The rapid expansion is explosive.
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
You know what a rapid expansion is, yes?
But regardless; transporting and storing a liquid that's 20 degrees above absolute zero poses issues that - if not always more dangerous - are certainly "different" to gasoline; such that significant effort/time/money would be required to supply liquid hydrogen at levels required to run vehicles.
EDIT: Sachakins beat me to the point on rapid unscheduled disassembly
selectortone
Still waking up not dead in the morning
I wrote this earlier in this thread (3 years earlier!) But I believe it bears repeating:
Back when I was working, selling control systems to process industries, any process to do with hydrogen production on an industrial scale was flagged up as a very scary undertaking. Pure hydrogen is several orders of magnitude more volatile than anything else available for your average punter to pipe into their car. They have been trying to introduce hydrogen as an alternative automobile fuel in Japan for over 20 years and it is still proving to be a challenge. Hydrogen is the very simplest element, (ie one atom), which means that containing it presents significant challenges. Basically, it will leak through just about anything (c.f. The Hindenburg). Hydrogen being dispensed in a typical garage forecourt scenario, as is being posited here, is just not feasible with current affordable (ie scalable) technology.
Back when I was working, selling control systems to process industries, any process to do with hydrogen production on an industrial scale was flagged up as a very scary undertaking. Pure hydrogen is several orders of magnitude more volatile than anything else available for your average punter to pipe into their car. They have been trying to introduce hydrogen as an alternative automobile fuel in Japan for over 20 years and it is still proving to be a challenge. Hydrogen is the very simplest element, (ie one atom), which means that containing it presents significant challenges. Basically, it will leak through just about anything (c.f. The Hindenburg). Hydrogen being dispensed in a typical garage forecourt scenario, as is being posited here, is just not feasible with current affordable (ie scalable) technology.
Jameshow
Established Member
Why didn't you stop after 1!!!
Jameshow
Established Member
Sorry to say this Jacob but I reckon the ICE car will out live you Jacob!!
Sachakins
The most wasted of days is one without woodwork
It’s like dovetails you’ve got to keep practicing till you get it right.
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