Does this one seem kosher ?

[RogerS]

Spotted this new Festool XL for sale on eBay.

I dunno. Maybe it's me but it smells iffy. If you look at other items the seller has sold in the past, there seems to be an awful lot of 'new' power tools. In addition, I asked three questions...

1) Is the receipt available? Answer....'the receipt is staying with my accountant'. :-k

2) Has it been registered yet with Festool for warranty ? Answer ....'it has not been registered yet as you can see in image it’s brand new with barcode so you can register yourself.' :-k :-k

3) Can I come and see it. Answer came there none.

Thoughts ?

 

[NazNomad]

Item location: Bradford

What else do you need to know? :-D

 

[whatknot]

I understand where you are coming from but surely if you win it and you pay by paypal are you not fully covered should it not arrive? or arrives damaged etc

As it retails for £900 it seems cheap as yet but has nearly a week to go

The choice is yours at the end of the day whether you want to risk it or not

Would the warranty be valid if you don't have a receipt?

 

[RogerS]

......
Would the warranty be valid if you don't have a receipt?

That I don't know. Don't you need to put in the purchase date ?

Worst case is that when you enter the serial number, it turns out to be nicked.

 

[flh801978]

I'll go and fetch it for you if you win it
though itll probably sell for 80-90% of new price

Ian

 

[Beau]

Seems odd they would provide so much information on the selling page if dodgy

Business seller information
Ellis empire
christopher Ellis
8 leavington close woodside
bd62nn bradford, West Yorkshire
UK
Phone:07912682259
Email[email protected]
I provide invoices with VAT separately displayed.

 

[Dibs-h]

It sounds local to me and Bradford ain't very large. I can always go look at it for you?

Given the answer to Q1 - my money is this: He's a business (most likely Ltd Co) and is buying tools thru the books, possibly reclaiming VAT but most likely getting tax relief against Coporation Tax and selling the tools out of the back door, effectively pulling money out of the books, with zero or very minimal NI, Tax and infact getting a 20% top due to the VAT.

Illegal for him. For the buyer - if you aren't actually colluding with him, then I would say it's not illegal for you. Unethical, immoral - those are different questions.

Cheers

Dibs

 

[Inoffthered]

It sounds local to me and Bradford ain't very large. I can always go look at it for you?

Given the answer to Q1 - my money is this: He's a business (most likely Ltd Co) and is buying tools thru the books, possibly reclaiming VAT but most likely getting tax relief against Coporation Tax and selling the tools out of the back door, effectively pulling money out of the books, with zero or very minimal NI, Tax and infact getting a 20% top due to the VAT.

Illegal for him. For the buyer .

Cheers

Dibs

If that is what he is doing, then he will be in a whole heap of trouble when HMRC find out.
1. Charging vat on invoices and not paying the vat over to HMRC can result in a prison sentence , even for relatively small amounts. Next ...
2. Corporation tax assessment. If assets purchased by the company are sold but not processed through the accounts HMRC will estimate the value of missing sales and issue an assessment for the corporation tax that would have been paid on those profits. There would also be penalties and interest charged for non disclosure of income. Next...
3. PAYE/NIC. If the machine sales have been trousered, then HMRC will calculate the paye and NI that the company would have paid if the amount misappropriated had been paid through the payroll. There would also be penalties levied for under-declaration of tax.Next.....
4. The person taking the cash will then have their personal tax position reviewed and will receive an assessment for undeclared income. The associated penalties and interest could be equal to the amount of unpaid tax.

 

[Dibs-h]

It sounds local to me and Bradford ain't very large. I can always go look at it for you?

Given the answer to Q1 - my money is this: He's a business (most likely Ltd Co) and is buying tools thru the books, possibly reclaiming VAT but most likely getting tax relief against Coporation Tax and selling the tools out of the back door, effectively pulling money out of the books, with zero or very minimal NI, Tax and infact getting a 20% top due to the VAT.

Illegal for him. For the buyer .

Cheers

Dibs

If that is what he is doing, then he will be in a whole heap of trouble when HMRC find out.
1. Charging vat on invoices and not paying the vat over to HMRC can result in a prison sentence , even for relatively small amounts. Next ...
2. Corporation tax assessment. If assets purchased by the company are sold but not processed through the accounts HMRC will estimate the value of missing sales and issue an assessment for the corporation tax that would have been paid on those profits. There would also be penalties and interest charged for non disclosure of income. Next...
3. PAYE/NIC. If the machine sales have been trousered, then HMRC will calculate the paye and NI that the company would have paid if the amount misappropriated had been paid through the payroll. There would also be penalties levied for under-declaration of tax.Next.....
4. The person taking the cash will then have their personal tax position reviewed and will receive an assessment for undeclared income. The associated penalties and interest could be equal to the amount of unpaid tax.

1. it wasn't charging VAT on invoices and pocketing it I was referring to, but him buying assets and "keeping" them on the books and claiming the VAT back, as if the company still has those assets.
4. I doubt the person buying the assets would be affected, if they are a private buyer, i.e. not a trade buyer. If they are a trade buyer, it would depend on them putting them thru the books and/or using them to produce work that is sold.

2&3 - that would all depend on getting inspected by HMRC.

Yes - I'm of the opinion that it's not "if" he gets inspected but "when".

Dibs

 

[RossJarvis]

If someone had nicked it from me and sold it on eBay, or down the pub, I'd be annoyed at him for nicking it and whoever was buying it on for creating the market.

He may be genuine, but if you think something is iffy just don't buy it, not just for your sake but also respecting the livelihood of who-ever had it nicked. I Really don't like people who buy stuff on the cheap who at least suspect or know it's stolen property.


I once bought a router from eBay as it was used but a nice price, only later did it come into my mind that it might have been stolen. For that reason I won't now buy anything unless I know it's sourced genuinely. Maybe having had numerous things nicked off me over the years helps!

 

[Inoffthered]

It sounds local to me and Bradford ain't very large. I can always go look at it for you?
]

1. it wasn't charging VAT on invoices and pocketing it I was referring to, but him buying assets and "keeping" them on the books and claiming the VAT back, as if the company still has those assets.
4. I doubt the person buying the assets would be affected, if they are a private buyer, i.e. not a trade buyer. If they are a trade buyer, it would depend on them putting them thru the books and/or using them to produce work that is sold.

2&3 - that would all depend on getting inspected by HMRC.

Yes - I'm of the opinion that it's not "if" he gets inspected but "when".

Dibs

I think you miss the point.

Re point 1, if a vat registered limited company is buying items and reclaiming the vat but a director is then selling them privately then that is tax evasion. HMRC take a dim view of fraud.

Re point 4, it has absolutely nothing to do with the status of the purchaser, please re-read the point. It refers to the consequences that will follow from the discovery that a director has sold company assets but not accounted for the transaction within the company and has kept the proceeds personally. As well as the corporation tax and paye/NI consequences in the company, HMRC will also seek to tax the director for undeclared earnings on the basis that he has received income from the company that was not subject to tax at source.

Re points 2 & 3 You are correct, it depends on an HMRC inspection however, do not underestimate the ability of HMRC to spot anomalies in company accounts. The corporation tax returns of all trading limited companies now include a set of accounts in IXBRL format, this allows automatic analysis of performance, comparison with prior year numbers and also comparison with sector norms.
Also, when HMRC do undertake an inspection , they invariably look through purchase invoice files and record details of any sales transaction that looks odd.
In addition HMRC has identified eBay as a medium used by many business that operate in the black economy. They are not bothered by someone selling a few surplus personal items but they know that there are some sizeable commercial businesses that have not registered as a business with HMRC and have not registered for VAT that are selling via eBay.
The ruse of using several eBay accounts may delay identification by HMRC but eBay do submit details of selling accounts to HMRC, so an individual with multiple accounts could actually bring themselves to the attention of the tax authorities.

If HMRC do make an inspection visit at some in the future and they find "anomalies" they will issue an assessment (which would include interest and penalties) going back six years (more if they suspect fraud). In order to appeal the assessment the taxpayer has to prove that that the assessment is excessive.

What may seem to be a jolly wheeze can create a huge tax bill at some point in the future.

 

[Dibs-h]

The Charging VAT - I hadn't spotted that he was charging VAT, but merely commenting that if he was originally paying VAT, then reclaiming it back from HRMC which would normally happen and then "quietly" selling those goods on - for the ex VAT price, i.e. defrauding HMRC on at least the VAT aspect not to mention taking money out of the books without declaring it and paying paye\nic and the paying the VAT on the disposal price.

As for defrauding HMRC - yes, that's plain and simple and HMRC don't take too kindly to such things.

4. Sorry - did reread your post and originally I mistakenly read it as referring to the buyer. You are quite right, the "fraudster", he'll need more than a prayer when not if HMRC catch up with him\her.

"automatic analysis" - I design and build those sorts of systems, so know the kind of power those systems give to an organisation and should his accounts\profile trigger enough or few red flags, then I suspect his file will automatically hit the desk of an inspector for a very close luck.

Ebay - I read something that HMRC have or are about to very shortly allow taxpayers a 1k allowance for selling stuff on Ebay.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news ... ticed.html

Sorry for the mis-reading of your posts. Must read more carefully.

Dibs

 

[Inoffthered]

"automatic analysis" - I design and build those sorts of systems, so know the kind of power those systems give to an organisation and should his accounts\profile trigger enough or few red flags, then I suspect his file will automatically hit the desk of an inspector for a very close luck.


Dibs

....and as HMRC develop their "Making Tax digital" strategy then the information that businesses and tax payers will soon have to submit digitally on a quarterly basis will provide further data for automatic analysis programmes.

 

[RogerS]

Leaving aside the moral and ethical issues, you only have 30 days to register the warranty from date of purchase. I am assuming that Festool would require sight of the original purchase invoice.

 

[Woodmonkey]

Leaving aside the moral and ethical issues, you only have 30 days to register the warranty from date of purchase. I am assuming that Festool would require sight of the original purchase invoice.

You'd be surprised...
We recently sent back a few festool tools for repair, one of which although was less than 3 years old we had no receipt and the tool hadn't been registered on purchase, and they fixed it foc anyway, as they said they could tell by the serial number when and where it had been sold.
One reason why paying the premium associated with festool can be worthwhile.

 

[ColeyS1]

The tools must have been worked hard or not be that good to start with to fail in under 3 years. Hearing about the kapex 'up in smoke' issues has made me seriously stop and think about what they deem acceptable to sell. They would have to have something very unique and not available from another manufacturer before I'd consider purchasing from them again- like a domino lol

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[jackss565]

Our ETS sander failed 3 months after warranty expires, fixed by Festool in 4 days free of charge. Fantastic service in my opinion. Sander was used for 4/5 hours per day 5 days a week and we would have been happy to pay