Diamond stones - advice required

[Aled Dafis]

Hi all

As the title suggests I'd like some advice regarding diamond sharpening stones.

Before some of you suggest Jap waterstones, I've tried them and decided that they're not for me as I only have a small workshop and only one bench which means clearing the bench in order to sharpen and avoid getting all of that dirty slurry and water over my work - it seems to get everywhere, yuk!!. :evil:

Before I talk about the options I've come up with, I should add that I hollow grind chisels and plane irons using a hand grinder before honing, so removing lots of material isn't an issue

I've been considering diamond stones for a while and have decided that my budget is around £80. The options I'm considering are a Trend 7 1/2" x 2 1/2" double sided stone (coarse/fine) or two eze-lap 11 1/2" x 2 1/2" (possibly Fine and Extra fine); both options are the same price.

My quandary lies in that the trend have superior quality diamonds, but is smaller and that the fine side is still possibly too coarse for that super duper edge tat you all talk about. On the other hand the coarse side would be useful for flattening the backs of blades quickly.

On the other hand the Eze-Lap stones are longer (which would work more efficiently with my Veritas Mk2 honing guide) but are of an inferior quality. The extra fine option would (should) however give me a better edge.

Any comments would be useful as I've been mulling this over in my head for a while and just cannot make my mind up.

Sorry for such a long post :roll:

 

[Alf]

Before some of you suggest Jap waterstones

Heaven forbid!

Before I talk about the options I've come up with, I should add that I hollow grind chisels and plane irons using a hand grinder before honing

Hey, so do I, so we're on the same page.

First up I have no experience of either the Trend or Eze-Lap, although I get the impression the Trend is very well thought of; I use a coarse/fine DMT. My feeling is you'll never get a really fine edge from a diamond "stone" anyway, so don't bother trying. Mind you, that doesn't mean that for less demanding edges it wouldn't be fine, depends how keen you are on super-sharp edges for everything really. My own preference veers between finishing with a fine natural oilstone or a fine micron diamond paste. Neither are without mess but on balance I find the oilstone slightly less of a nightmare in that regard. But the paste is quicker on these godawful A2 blades.

On balance I think I'd opt for the better quality diamonds of the Trend (a bit of practice and the MkII will cope with the smaller size okay) and scrape up/save up enough for some paste or an oilstone for the finer edge, maybe using fine abrasives "Scary Sharp" fashion in the meantime, if saving is required? But that's just me; put 15 woodworkers in a room and ask about sharpening and be prepared for 30 different answers - minimum. :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Colin C]

Hi Aled Dafis
I have used the Eze-Lap's for the last 7-8 years and still have my first one ( I use it in the workshop and I am a full time restorer)
What you will find is that they are a little course at first but do find they are fine after that ( if you have any backs to flatern, when you first get your stone would be a good time to do it )
I also know 4 friends that have had them for years also and if you want to get them for a good price try Tilgear, they do the fine of the size you want for £35 + vat and the super fine for £29.50 ( but its the 8"x3")
They number is 01707 873434 and free p+p for orders over £50.
Ps They also have some very good sales, as you might have guessed I use them myself.
Its a bit of an aladin's cave

 

[Aled Dafis]

Alf

put 15 woodworkers in a room and ask about sharpening and be prepared for 30 different answers - minimum.

I was expecting a myriad of replies, they will probably give me more options than answers but hey, the more the merrier.

As regards the shorter length of the Trend Stone, would it be feasible to run the Veritas guide on a block of wood of equal thickness in front of the stone to maximise the usueable length? (dont think I've made myself clear here, but i hope you get the jist)

How much would a fine oilstone put me back (approx)?

Thanks
Aled

 

[MikeW]

Before some of you suggest Jap waterstones

Heaven forbid!

:lol: :wink:

Aled, you can use a piece of wood of the same height to enable using the stone more fully. I've done the same as an exploration into cambering with the MK.II--the wood was slight convex on its top. Point is, it worked as a means to have the roller sit on a separate surface.

If I were to make one, I probably would make a holder for the stone and the raised portion as a single unit. First, I suppose it would keep them together, but more importantly it would keep the stone from ever pushing away from the raised portion.

Take care, Mike
shaptons, no muss, no fusshttp://wenzloffandsons.com/temp/sharp/index.html

 

[Chris Knight]

Aled,
It would be quite feasible to use a piece of wood to "extend" the Trend stone.

Good oilstones to be used for final sharpening are not cheap. The best modern ones can easily cost as much or more than diamond stones. However, you may be lucky and pick up a secondhand one at a boot sale or on Ebay. For you to be lucky, the seller has to be ignorant of its value which will likely mean that it looks absolutely horrible. However, stones are easily cleaned and can be flattened on a coarse diamond stone or with a suitably hard material.

My favoured sharpening process now uses a diamond stone, and a surgical black or translucent Arkansas oilstone as the last stone before lightly stropping the edge. The surgical black stone is a large one 3" by 10" and was a King's ransom. The translucent stone is 8" by 2" and was a reasonable £30 from Tilgear. I think I was very lucky with this stone, it is of excellent quality but they may have more like it. I have a couple of smaller black Arkansas stones from boot sales that are pretty good and also a couple of very nice slate slipstones that I use for carving tools. I have not seen a good large slate stone but I keep looking.

 

[mudman]

Chris,

Came across this the other day.
At that price, might be worth trying it out.
I have a slate bench stone that I picked up in the market for a quid. Has a few knocks but I like it and it gives a very good edge.

 

[Alf]

I may have a stone, in a fitted box, that might fit the bill - somehow it never made it to the For Sale list. Dunno what it it is, but pretty fine IIRC (I'd have to check) PM if interested. Definitely less than £30 :wink:

Trouble with all my oilstones is, except for a recent Washita, I've absolutely no idea what they are. :roll:

Cheers, Alf
Busily ignoring Mike

 

[MikeW]

Cheers, Alf
Busily ignoring Mike

Won't work... :lol:

I have found that with natural stones sometimes the grading of them was really far off.

For instance, I have a stone of the "I have no idea what it is" category. It looks fairly coarse and one can actually catch the fingernail in its surface. Or rather, can definitely feel the porosity with the edge of the nail.

But it leaves a very nice usable finish on chisels at least comparable between a 2k-4k waterstone. While this is not as fine as I would take them when I have time to do a proper job, it is comparable to what I use to hone while I am working.

Take care, Mike

 

[Anonymous]

Aled

I have the Trend and the course side is not course enough to flatten backs in any reasonabole time at all. Arms would give up long before the thing is flat.
However, the fine side does give a nice edge and is about the equivalent of a 1000 grit waterstone.

I use a course DMT for flattening and the Trend as an intermeidate beofre the 6000 grit waterstone.

Hope this helps

 

[woodbloke]

DMT's for me, coarse, fine and extra fine. The final edge is achieved by a few strops on some leather coated with jewellers rouge paste which is much finer stuff than normal stropping paste and gives an incredible edge. The back of plane blades (not chisels) are finished on the extra fine stone by placing a very thin steel rule down one edge of the stone, and polishing the back on the other side of the stone, thus only about two or three mil of the blade is touched. The very slight angle produced makes no effective difference and makes the sharpening process much quicker as you don't have to polish the whole of the back - Rob

 

[Alf]

We, too, have this strange technique of which you speak, effendi. In our tongue we call it "DC's Ruler Trick". A wise, bearded prophet from the East (well east of me, anyway) did come among us and fortell the polishing of the backs in timely manner. And low it came to pass for the enlightened converts that it was so. For the rest of the villanous dogs a life of drudgery and back polishing is too good for them and they're hardly fit to pick up our date stones.

Sharp edges go with you, Ali

Who in true mystic manner sometimes uses the Ruler Trick and other times makes like your actual villanous dog. Depends on my mood... :wink:

 

[Shady]

Poo to all of this nonsense: for repeatable, consistent quality, get waterstones of the appropriate grades, at the same price for all of them as one coarse diamond stone... Buy a plant sprinkler bottle from your local garden centre, and produce edges that will polish hardwoods. I do it outside, washing the slurry down the garden drain, and thoroughly enjoy the process... :wink:

You can never guarantee/change the flatness of a diamond stone - you just have to trust the manufacturer... It takes about 2 minutes to assure yourself of the flatness of your waterstone by abrading it.

Precision, control, price - there is no comparison...

(sits back, waits for the blunt diamond stone users' knives to hit...)

 

[Jake]

It takes about 2 minutes to assure yourself of the flatness of your waterstone by abrading it.

Shouldn't you be scraping it really, along the same lines as Bugbear advocates for plane soles?

 

[woodbloke]

You can never guarantee/change the flatness of a diamond stone - you just have to trust the manufacturer... It takes about 2 minutes to assure yourself of the flatness of your waterstone by abrading it.

Precision, control, price - there is no comparison...

(sits back, waits for the blunt diamond stone users' knives to hit...)[/quote]

A couple of moments inattentiveness will produce waterstones that you think are flat but which are nowhere near; its only when you put a chisel back flattened on a jap stone onto a DMT stone do you realise that the abraded corners were caused by the supposedly flat waterstone - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

Aled,

I would suggest that the next time you are at a woodworking show, visit the Clico stand. Clico make the Clifton range of planes. Have a word with Mike Hudson and look at the finish he gets on his blades. That will give you an idea of what you should be aiming at.

Mike is quite relaxed about what stones to use but he finishes his blades on a leather strop with some polishing compound.

I think you will be impressed - and at least you will be able to see what to aim for.

Paul

 

[Aled Dafis]

Thanks for your replies.

As regards the use of slate as a honing medium, I would have thought that is was way too soft, and therefore would suffer the same wear as Japanese waterstones.

I might however just be naive in thinking that you're talking of standard machined slate as used for window sills and grave stones as opposed to a specific type of slate used for honing :?

Please keep your thoughts coming.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Aled,

One more point about diamond stones. You said in your original post that you found water stones messy. Most of the manufacturers of diamond stones recommend that you use them with water. When I bought mine I found using water was very messy (lots of black gunge and the ever-present danger of rust on the stones, honing guide and blades) so I changed to using WD40 and have used it ever since. Some people don't like WD40 - if you don't like it you could try 3in1 oil instead. I find both work well and have no adverse affect on the diamond stones.

I use the DMT 8 inch polka dot stones in course, fine and extra fine. The extra fine won't give you a mirror finish which is why I am now experimenting with a leather strop and polishing compound to finish off.

Good luck with whatever you decide to go with :wink:

Paul

 

[Alf]

Ooo, good point, Paul, I'd forgotten that. I use paraffin fwiw (well lamp oil 'cos it's not smelly)

Cheers, Alf

 

[Chris Knight]

Barry,
Many thanks for that link - as you say at that price you can't really go too far wrong.