David charlesworth, cambered blade with a back bevel?

[Racers]

It also works on soft nasty wood, I had very good results on burr silver birch setting the chip breaker very close, just the merest sliver of reflected light from the iron.
Long crinkly shavings is what you are after, if you don't get them set the chip breaker closer.

Pete

 

[Trafalgar]

So the assertion made is that bringing the chip breaker very close to the edge negates the
need for a back bevel. How true is this? From experience it does help with planing certain
harder woods, but what about really hard nasty woods?

Corneel has posted some good material on this.

BugBear

In case Ali missed it earlier:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodw ... ipbreakers

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

But I don't think the OP is using a cap iron, (perhaps no more than a depth adjuster anyway) as I suggested earlier single irons will not benefit from the cap iron effect. He wants help with back bevels!

The best plane I ever used for ornery stuff had a fine mouth and a high(ish) EP. If I went to a world of no cap irons I would not be unhappy with back bevels to acheive the same. I use every method available, cap irons set close, scraper planes, card scrapers, whatever the wood dictates and the mood takes. I like beans and they are nutritious, but don't eat them every day. A varied taste and a diversity of techniques is nothing to be frightened of!

Mike.

 

[Trafalgar]

Ian Kirby, back bevels:

http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/Main/ ... -7598.aspx

I found this bit from the article to be informative:

"As metallurgy advanced, larger manufacturers, such as Stanley in the USA and Record in the UK, replaced this method with a powder metallurgy process. Using this technology, a sintered material is applied to the bottom portion of the blade on the flat back side. In a controlled atmosphere at high temperature, the metal powders coalesce to form the hard, solid pad needed to make a cutting edge. It does a first-rate job, but the pad is relatively thin. When using this type of blade, you must keep the back-sharpened bevel very small. I don't see this as a constraint, because it should be kept small no matter the type of blade. Four to six strokes on a 4,000-grit stone is all it takes."


Matthew from Workshop Heaven:

http://woodworkingmasterclasses.com/dis ... ack-bevel/

I have to say that Matthew's set up is reminiscent of a Mondrian painting.

Perhaps (?) DC has a video he'd be willing to link for the benefit of the OP.

 

[ali27]

So the assertion made is that bringing the chip breaker very close to the edge negates the
need for a back bevel. How true is this? From experience it does help with planing certain
harder woods, but what about really hard nasty woods?

Corneel has posted some good material on this.

BugBear

In case Ali missed it earlier:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodw ... ipbreakers

Very interesting. Thanks.

...............

And it left a typical planed surface – it didn’t look like it had been scraped.

So the closed set chip breaker results in a better surface than when it is planed with a high EP?

Ali

 

[Trafalgar]

Yes, though nothing is ever a perfect solution. You need more than one arrow in your quiver.

Also consider focusing on your scraper set up and technique. Properly done, a surface won't look scraped and will be indistinguishable from the surface left by a plane. Scraping is another way of presenting a high angle cutting implement to a piece of wood. It's not sexy and you can't build a cottage industry around it but it is quite effective when, like all things woodworking, judiciously and deftly executed.

 

[matthewwh]

I'm not sure whether to chip in or just sit back with a bag of popcorn.

I've been using a spare iron with a back bevel for years, an extra iron is about £20 new, less if you get an old one (you don't need an immaculate back on it). Just swapping the irons out seems a much cheaper and faster solution than faffing about changing frogs.

Back bevels increase the pitch of the iron, as do high angle planes. Close set cap irons achieve a similar result although perhaps closer to emulating the hook of a scraper. The objective is the same, and it can be achieved by either/any route.

For me, setting the cap iron within a 64th of the edge is a fiddly task that interrupts my working rhythm and risks damage to the edge if you slip. Others clearly get on well with it - great!

Going back to the original question, the camber on a smoother is so slight that you can get all of it in a flat 1/2mm back bevel. Yes, in theory it will alter the camber a tiny bit, but not significantly. Take a test shaving and if the cut is too narrow - hone the centre of the blade until it takes a broader cut.

 

[Trafalgar]

Once a capiron is properly tuned it never need be touched again. Their mild steel make them easy and quick to tune as well.

A back bevel requires maintenance at every single honing.

As mentioned, a steady diet of difficult stock seems to imply a York or middle pitch plane whose iron, of course, COULD be back-beveled if the need arises. Apparently Chrish Schwarz, Deneb Puchalski of Lie-Nielsen, and the gentleman from Blue Spruce found what might be considered the 'sweetspot' in the combination of a high pitched plane with a close capiron, no back bevel though there's certainly no law that says you can't back bevel the iron of a high pitched plane if push absolutely came to shove.

I'm not sure why obviously well equipped operations have drawn the line at buying in a higher pitched plane. Norris, et al. seemed to find a ready market for them 'back in the day.' I guess we've become more enlightened than those old masters who were their customers.

Read the Schwarz link if you have a moment.

Lie-Nielsen can supply the planes; ten bucks extra nets a 55*, middle pitch plane:

High Angle Frogs

Until now, all Stanley-type bench plane irons were bedded at 45°, or Common Pitch. But the famous English Smoothers like Norris are usually 50° (York Pitch) or 55° (Middle Pitch). The higher angles make smoothing difficult wood easier. Our unique High Angle Frogs (HAF) quickly convert our No. 3 through No. 7 Bench Planes to York Pitch or Middle Pitch. Will not fit other makes of planes. May be ordered separately or installed in the tool (the 50° HAF for no additional charge, the 55° HAF for $10 more).

 

[woodbrains]

Yes, though nothing is ever a perfect solution. You need more than one arrow in your quiver.
.

Hello,

Precisely!

Mike.

 

[bugbear]

Lie-Nielsen can supply the planes; ten bucks extra nets a 55*, middle pitch plane:

High Angle Frogs

Good to hear the answer is to buy a new tool from LN.

BugBear

 

[Corneel]

In the last few years I've done quite a bit of research to the effects of chipbreakers. For me the first objective was that every plane I have, posesses a chipbreaker and I didn't really know how to use it. I did see some effect but wasn't immediately impressed. Back then I used backbevels and also a ROS quite often. Even with simple stuff like Ash or sof Maple. High angle planes weren't in my repertoire because they are quite inavailable on the antique market. The Kato video really opened my eyes to see how close the capiron should really be to the edge.

This very close setting does several things. It allows to forget about a tight mouth. In a Baley plane you get the best support when the frog is pulled back. It also support the edge right where you need it, just behind the edge. And of course it works just as well to prevent tearout as a high cutting angle up to 60-65 degrees or so. Above that you start to scrape. A very nice thing is its adjustability. So in somewhat less demanding woodyou can pull it back a bit to get a smoother surface with less force. That's about smoothers. In jack planes the capiron can't be set quite as close but it is still effective at a larger distance with thick shavings not entirelly avoiding tearout but certainly helping to reduce the depth and serousness of the tearout. Single iron jack planes can really tear up the wood.

Overall I am pretty happy how it works in my simple Stanleys and woodies. You do need to prepare the capiron carefully (once). LikeI wrote before, for really rotten stuff like some curly interlocked Meranti I had a while ago, I have an Ulmia york pitch plane with capiron.

 

[Trafalgar]

Lie-Nielsen can supply the planes; ten bucks extra nets a 55*, middle pitch plane:

High Angle Frogs

Good to hear the answer is to buy a new tool from LN.

BugBear

Well, there are certainly less joyous occasions than unwrapping a package from those fellows.

 

[Trafalgar]

In the last few years I've done quite a bit of research to the effects of chipbreakers. For me the first objective was that every plane I have, posesses a chipbreaker and I didn't really know how to use it. I did see some effect but wasn't immediately impressed. Back then I used backbevels and also a ROS quite often. Even with simple stuff like Ash or sof Maple. High angle planes weren't in my repertoire because they are quite inavailable on the antique market. The Kato video really opened my eyes to see how close the capiron should really be to the edge.

This very close setting does several things. It allows to forget about a tight mouth. In a Baley plane you get the best support when the frog is pulled back. It also support the edge right where you need it, just behind the edge. And of course it works just as well to prevent tearout as a high cutting angle up to 60-65 degrees or so. Above that you start to scrape. A very nice thing is its adjustability. So in somewhat less demanding woodyou can pull it back a bit to get a smoother surface with less force. That's about smoothers. In jack planes the capiron can't be set quite as close but it is still effective at a larger distance with thick shavings not entirelly avoiding tearout but certainly helping to reduce the depth and serousness of the tearout. Single iron jack planes can really tear up the wood.

Overall I am pretty happy how it works in my simple Stanleys and woodies. You do need to prepare the capiron carefully (once). Like I wrote before, for really rotten stuff like some curly interlocked Meranti I had a while ago, I have an Ulmia york pitch plane with capiron.

The higher the bedding angle the more a cutter acts as its own chipbreaker (up to and including a scraper). Setting a capiron close, and one that has a fairly steep and honed leading edge (see Graham Blackburn) forces the chip into the same orientation as it would have coming off a more steeply pitched iron. Set a cap iron close on a York or middle pitch plane and as Scwharz 'discovered' you have an unbeatable combination. None of this is really new, of course.

If you've ever honed a capiron to make a close fit to the back of the cutter you likely will have created a burr on the leading edge. If you chased this burr by tilting the capiron up on the stone you likely created the steep wall you need. If you left the burr there you probably got really, really lousy performance if the capiron was set very close, or at least until the shavings wore it away the performance was sub-par.

Oherwise, Schwarz proved the beauty and efficacy of Norris and other double-ironed planes with a pitch higher than 45* -- a proper smoother, not the late-Friday-afternoon-before-a-holiday-dodge being presented as a permanent solution.

 

[MIGNAL]

The first time I was aware of the chipbreaker effect was in the early '80's or perhaps the very late '70's. I had read it in either a book or an article somewhere. Probably known about as soon as chipbreakers themselves came about. I wouldn't say it was forgotten but it does seem as though many averted their gaze to tight mouths, waterstones and thicker blades.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I seem to have had an unusual education. I was taught to grind the irons and hone them with a slight camber, exactly what a chip breaker did and how close to set it and how to adjust the frog for a tight mouth (and when and why) at school, c.1968.

Dennis K. take a bow if you're reading this. At least one person remembers what you taught! =D>

 

[Trafalgar]

You are fortunate indeed.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I like to think so.

 

[Trafalgar]

I like to think so.

Seems like I've read a post by a recognizable name (not Mignal, above) saying the chipbreaker information had essentially been lost on British woodworking. Good to see this wasn't the case, it seemed implausible anyway.

 

[Corneel]

My pet theory is that it was mostly the Internet community that lost the knowledge about the capiron. And because there were very few old time professional handtool workers left, it became a bit obscure. While at the same time the Internet community shouted with loud voices how stupid the capiron was.

 

[MIGNAL]

My pet theory is that it was mostly the Internet community that lost the knowledge about the capiron. And because there were very few old time professional handtool workers left, it became a bit obscure. While at the same time the Internet community shouted with loud voices how stupid the capiron was.

I strongly suspect that other darker forces were afoot. It had long fallen into disuse, yet was known by the cognoscenti. A kind of secret society, the woodworkers illuminati, who were hell bent on bringing about a new LV/LN woodworking order.
Whenever those celebrity woodworkers met, or passed each other in the street, curious eye movements and peculiar hand signals were performed.
Fortunately a counter revolution slowly began to emerge. Ably abetted by the glorious might of St. Jacob. A movement to rediscover long lost adaptions and techniques for the greater good of all woodworkers the world over.
Amen.