Couple of questions re: jointing and grooving

[Pond]

Hello,

Me again with some probably stupid questions:

I have looked everywhere on t'interweb and trolled you tube for a video but can't seem to find the answers-

I want to make some cabinet doors from oak in a 'shaker' style with thin centre panels fitted in a groove in the rails and stiles. I then want to tack some torus moulding around the edge to give a traditional 'handmade' effect, simple but classy type of thing!
Is using thin (6-8mm) boards and jointing them a good idea? Will they bow or move over time? If yes, how should I joint them; straight glueing, rabbet joint, t&g? I have read that oak doesn't glue very well??

The only other way I can see is using veneered ply or MDF panels. I don't want to do this if I can help it because I feel it will be 'cheating' and because I want a natural waxed finish I am concerned the colours and graining won't match and look like veneer.
Any advice?

The other question is that I want to joint the rails and stiles (and external framing) with a single (or two piece) t&g cutter for ease and accuracy. I anticipate all frames to be 23-25mm thick but can't find a cutter set to cut larger than 18mm, ie a standard cabinet thickness, without rabbeting them at differing heights, which makes the expensive cutters a waste of money !

If I wanted to make raised panels and fielded frames, the choice in cutters is endless, but I don't! :roll:

Am I missing something, or on completely the wrong track. I need to sort out how to do this before budgeting for the tooling, as I don't want to buy £100-150 cutter sets that won't do what I require!!

As usual, any advice greatly appreciated.

Andy

 

[Steve Maskery]

Hi Pond
I don't really understand this. You say you want Shaker style. But the Shakers did not use sticking, the panels, rails and stiles were all plain. The only embellishment, really, were the finials on the tops of posts.

Oak glues perfectly well, so I don't know why anyone would have difficulties with it. I would make the panels solid if I wanted a rustic effect, and veneered if I wanted a more uniform effect offer a range of doors. Unless the cabinets are on the large side you can use a groove in both rails and stiles, say 15mm deep, and cut stub tenons on the rails to match. Provided that the tenons are a good fit, and why shouldn't they be, then it will be plenty strong enough.

The grooves are best cut with a groover, either on the spindle moulder or the router table. You could do it on the RT with a straight 6mm cutter, but it would be slower. I really don't think you need to spend £100 on tooling to do this job well.

There are a thousands ways to cut a tenon, but these days I do them on the tablesaw or bandsaw. I have jigs which mean there is no cleaning up to do, except for the glue. Or you could use loose tenons, which also make it easy to get everything flush. Again, that is easy to achieve with a mortising jig. If you have loads to do, you might want to consider donating some money to Festool (which I realise contradicts what I said above about spending money on tooling...).
Cheers
Steve

 

[Jacob]

.....

If I wanted to make raised panels and fielded frames, the choice in cutters is endless, but I don't! :roll:

Fielded panel is the traditional and the best way - and you don't need any cutters. The fields are on the back, with plain flat side to the font. The edge is tapered to fit your slots in the frame. The tapering is very easily done with a hand plane, against a stop on your bench such as a bit of lath nailed on. The panels made up of say 1/2" boards just edge glued and fitted loose with clearance so that they can move.
Here's one lifted at random from the net. This is how the shakers (and almost everybody else) would have done it. This would be the back. If it was the front you'd expect it to be raised as well.

 

[Pond]

The 'shaker' style was more to explain I want a flat thin centre panel, with add-on mouldings, rather than moulded rails and stiles. I am learning the woodworking 'jargon' slowly but can't explain myself very well yet

The centre panels (including tenons/tongues into the grooves) will be approx 215mm x 215mm. So, if I used 3 boards of 3" x 1" thicknessed and planed to approx 71mm x 6mm thick, glued to form a panel and fitted loose inside the frame grooves, this will give 'room for movement'? Is this correct?

The other option I was considering was rabbeting the rear of the frame, that way I could get away with 12-15mm centre panels, but I don't want a 'flat rear'!

I appreciate the 'plane and chisel' advise, but I am NOT a cabinet maker (not even close), so want the machinery to do the work, at the minute!!

So the picture above is a fielded panel, fitted back to front?

 

[jeffinfrance]

hi andy,

what tooling do have acces to? a router table perhaps. if so, easy job on there. do all your mouldings from solid and cut the groove at the same time. garb yourself a matched set of profile and counter profile router bits in the style you like and that does all your stile/rail joints at the same time too.

then it's decision time re the panel. if you are adamant you dont want to "field" the panel yourself (can be done with a panel raiser router cutter on a table) you'll have to get a bit of veneered ply/mdf the right thickness for the groove cutter.

job done

all the best,

jeff

 

[Steve Maskery]

Then I can only reiterate my advice. For such small doors a stub tenon is more than adequate.
So if you want your doors to finish at 25mm, start with 1 1/4" stock. Rout a groove 6mm wide, 7mm from the back, 15mm deep. Cut tenons to match. That will then leave you 12mm at the front to fill with your mouldings, say 8mm.
It will give you the door you are looking for.
Personally I wouldn't thickness 1" stuff down to 6mm, it's too wasteful, but if you resaw it first you should get two panels at, say 10mm which you can then thickness to the groove. I don't think it's very likely you will get 3x 8mm panels out of a 1" board.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Jacob]

....
So the picture above is a fielded panel, fitted back to front?

No that's normal. It's the solution to your problem - how to get a solid wood panel with a flat face into a thin door frame i.e. thick raised panel with tapered edges.
Alternatively having the raise (with or without field) on the face side is just another design variation and is done more carefully because it's seen. Also is more familiar obviously.

NB I get confused about which is "field" and which isn't. If you take the field to be the flat with a raised edge in the middle then I'm talking about raised (but unfielded) panels. I'm going to stick to that in future! It's confusing because they are "raised" by taking stuff off, which is more like sinking.

 

[Hudson Carpentry]

I wouldn't trust gluing 6mm thick panels together at all. I would do as the picture above, a raised panel, in the door, flat side out. This way you benefit from strength in the glue joints and a more stable panel. To make the raised panel you can use your table saw with a jig that holds the board 90deg. You tilt your saw blade to the desired taper and run each side through. If you only have a thin saw fence to run jigs alone make a sledge type one that sits in your mitre slot.

http://www.newwoodworker.com/pnlrasjig.html

 

[Steve Maskery]

NB I get confused about which is "field" and which isn't. If you take the field to be the flat with a raised edge in the middle then I'm talking about raised (but unfielded) panels.

That is the most interesting thing I've read on here for a long time!

I've always understood it to be the other way round. I thought that the field was the slopey bit and the raised bit was when the flat area was raised up above the edge of the field.

I thought you could have a panel that was fielded but not raised (which is what I took to be the picture above). I'm quite prepared to believe I've been wrong for 53 years (I seem to have been wrong about a lot of things recently, so one more isn't going to make much difference...).
S

 

[Steve Maskery]

I wouldn't trust gluing 6mm thick panels together at all.

Whyever not? It's a long-grain to long grain joint. If the joint is sound the glue is stronger than the wood. And on such a short panel there is no reason to think that it is not possible to plane a piece straight when it's only 9" long!

I've made millions of panels that way (OK, OK, several dozen) and have never had a problem.

S

 

[Jacob]

...
I've always understood it to be the other way round. I thought that the field was the slopey bit and the raised bit was when the flat area was raised up above the edge of the field.....

Me too, but then I started having doubts!

 

[Steve Maskery]

What day is it? Who is the prime minister? Has anyone seen my ration book?

 

[Hudson Carpentry]

I didn't look at the size. At that size I wouldn't be to worried as long its only flat sanding required after there glued.

 

[Pond]

Thanks for the advice chaps.

So if I went with 'full thickness' panel boards I could assemble the whole door with these??

http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Onl ... e_196.html

http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Onl ... t_260.html

With a moulding cutter to finish the 'pretty' bits??!

 

[Hudson Carpentry]

Yes. Well a bit of glue as well

If your never going to use them again you could also cut the T&G on the table saw. I would cut the t&g in long runs then cut down to rail/stile size regardless if you use a RT or TS.

 

[Pond]

NB I get confused about which is "field" and which isn't. If you take the field to be the flat with a raised edge in the middle then I'm talking about raised (but unfielded) panels. I'm going to stick to that in future! It's confusing because they are "raised" by taking stuff off, which is more like sinking.

If you are confused, imagine what it's like for numpty's like me!! :?

 

[Pond]

Yes. Well a bit of glue as well

If your never going to use them again you could also cut the T&G on the table saw. I would cut the t&g in long runs then cut down to rail/stile size regardless if you use a RT or TS.

I am going to frame the cupboards with the same timber, so I'm presuming i can use the T&G cutter to cut mortice and tenons for the T and running joints??

The raised cutter is not too expensive so if it does the job I'm happy. i have approximately 30 cabinets plus drawers plus 2 dressers to build; that's just the kitchen. I will (presuming it all goes well) then re-fit the utility room cupboards and the pantry after that. Then who knows? So the cutters will pay for themselves

I'm thinking because I'm a d*ckhead, sorry novice, I will waste a lot of expensive timber (even if I use whitewood to practice) before I get it right on a table saw.

 

[Pond]

Yes. Well a bit of glue as well

Talking of glue!

Which glue is best for 'proper' work like this? PVA, polyurethane, copydex?

i've been looking at glue but they all say they are the best for everything. Bless those marketing people! :roll:

 

[Steve Maskery]

Yes you could. But goodness me, you really are making things difficult and very expensive for yourself.
S
PS PVA would be a good choice. I rate Wudcare and NoMoreNails Express. Polyurethane is messy and unnecessary. As for Copydex, leave that for the furry material people.

 

[Hudson Carpentry]

If im right in what i think your referring to (the face frame), then only for a tenon. As you will not want to see the grove once you open the door. You would need to make the mortice another way. If it was me, I would assemble the face frame using pocket screws or biscuits.

Its slow on a TS, so if you have a lot to do you will there for ever anyway.

Second on PVA/PVR. I use Titebond, before I moved over I used evostick PVR (blue one).