Chisels sizes, what for what work?

[Ed Bray]

I bought a set of 8 Bevel Edged Marples Chisels a few months ago but had not got around to flattening the backs until yesterday (took 6 hours to completely flatten the backs and to then go through the grades of my diamond stones before using diamond paste down to 0.5 micron to polish the backs, this was just the 6 smallest chisels). The set I bought was a set of 6 (6mm, 10mm, 13mm, 19mm 25mm 32mm) but came with 2 additional chisels free of charge, (these were a 40mm and 50mm).

Now my question, what would the 40mm & 50mm chisels typically be used for?

I can't really see what I would need chisels of this width for, as it took so long to fettle the smaller sizes, I am loathe to spend the time and effort doing the same with the 40mm & 50mm if I am never likely to use them.

TIA

 

[JimB]

Chisels that size do come in handy. One use I can think of is if you are repairing furniture etc. by gluing a piece in. A good wide flat chisel will give you the flat base you need.
I've seen them used two-handed like a draw knife to rapidly remove waste.
If you are housing studs they are handy and so on...
The uses will turn up, just not all that often.

 

[Racers]

I like to use a 2" chisel for paring plugs, cleaning hinge mortices etc its a handy size the and width makes it easy to hold flat.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

....
I can't really see what I would need chisels of this width for, as it took so long to fettle the smaller sizes, I am loathe to spend the time and effort doing the same with the 40mm & 50mm if I am never likely to use them.

TIA

"Flattening" is completely unnecessary and pointless. It shouldn't take more than a minute or so to get a new chisel into use. A lot of these methods have been invented by dubious "experts" who like to make things difficult for everybody. They must have wasted millions of hours of people's time over the years!

 

[bugbear]

Now my question, what would the 40mm & 50mm chisels typically be used for?

I can't really see what I would need chisels of this width for, as it took so long to fettle the smaller sizes, I am loathe to spend the time and effort doing the same with the 40mm & 50mm if I am never likely to use them.

TIA

I would defer prepping those until you have a use for them. Wide chisels DO have their uses (see above), but the 1/4 - 3/4" range are used more than the others (you can tell this by the wear seen various sizes of old chisels).

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

They don't need "prepping" - you just sharpen and go. 1 minute max.

This is as much flattening and polishing you need on a typical new chisel face:

In fact polishing the faces of chisels is probably one of the daftest, most time consuming and pointless procedures invented by our modern "experts". I guess it's some sort of power trip they are on.

If you just sharpen (1 minute!) as and when you actually need to use a chisel (as BB says above) you may find that quite a few of your set never get used at all for many years and remain as new.
Conversely you read of new set owners struggling to polish etc who are actually spoiling perfectly good brand new chisels before they've even had a chance to use them. Imparting the effect of years of use/misuse before they've been near a piece of wood!

It's a funny old world!

 

[lurker]

The older I get and the more I learn, the more I agree with you Jacob


I was watching a Paul sellers u tube yesterday and he seems to agree with us. By the Way he was fettling out of packet Aldi chisels :lol:

 

[undergroundhunter]

I never has a use for a 1 1/2 inch chisel until I aquired one with some other tools, its becoming my go to chisel for defing knife lines and such. I also agree with Jacob and Luker, there is no real need to polish the backs, they just look nice.

Matt

 

[Ed Bray]

Thanks all for your comments, looks like I wasted 6 hours then, but they do look good and if I need to I could probably shave with one and use the 32mm as a mirror.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

It depends what you mean by polish the back. The back needs to be as sharp as the bevel, or it ain't sharp. If you hone the bevel to x grit stone then the back also needs to be x grit. I'm not saying what x need to be, but in my case 8000 grit Japanese stone. How far this is done along the back is down to personal preference, but at least some of the back to form a continuous edge at the cutting tip is essential. If much or all of the back has to be polished in order to achieve this, then this is just what has to be done. If 3 mm of polished back achieves this, then by all means stop, it will do fine. But make no mistake, both edges that meet to form the cutting edge, BOTH need to be sharpened to equal degrees. If Paul Sellers or anyone else says it doesn't, then I'm afraid they are wrong. Anyone who can't grasp the fact that both meeting planes have to be polished to the same degree, entitled to do as they wish, of course, is deluding themselves, I'm afraid.

The OP has not wasted his time polishing the chisel backs, he will have sharp tools for life.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

....
The OP has not wasted his time polishing the chisel backs, he will have sharp tools for life.

Mike.

Only if he keeps sharpening them for life!
In fact it's easier to sharpen when the face is slightly concave across and along, as are all new chisels (in my experience - not a great number of new ones). As the face gets flattened, with time it will end up slightly convex as it becomes increasingly necessary to lift it whilst flattening, to turn back the burr. But this is no problem - slightly convex or concave is fine. Dead flat is impossible to maintain unless you flatten the whole face every time you sharpen, which would be madness, and a very short life for the chisel.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Anyone who can't grasp the fact that both meeting planes have to be polished to the same degree, entitled to do as they wish, of course, is deluding themselves, I'm afraid.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that point Mike, which is, of course, entirely correct.

The OP has not wasted his time polishing the chisel backs, he will have sharp tools for life. Mike.

Well, only if he sharpens them when they get dull through use, ha, ha. I think it could be argued that some time was 'wasted' in the initial effort expended because it "took 6 hours to completely flatten the backs" according to Ed, the instigator of the topic. However, 'wasted' is, I suppose, a relevant term that requires context. Six hours flattening chisels when the job might take me maybe ten or fifteen minutes to get them in good shape for what I want, i.e., darned good, would be a waste of time to me, but that wouldn't necessarily be the case for someone else where time and productive necessity in their woodworking isn't of much consequence.

It really isn't necessary to flatten the whole of the flat side of the chisel, as others, including yourself, have said. The image Jacob put up shows a chisel that's plenty flat enough on the side opposite the bevelled side to work effectively. And subsequent sharpening will continue to flatten the face (described as the back by many) if done correctly. Slainte.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Obviously the bevel has to be honed as required, but the backs never again, save removing the wire edge on the finest stone, which will look after the backs forever more and not make any significant convexity for the life of the tool.

I think there are many inferences that the back does not need to be polished at all, or so rudimentarily as not to do what we know it needs, i.e. to the same level of fineness as the bevel will receive. Jacob's photo is OK in the respect that the edge that meets the tip is continuously flat. The level of coarseness evident however, means that tool will not be sharp enough, whether the bevel receives the same (coarse) finish or a finer one.

Mike.

 

[Ed Bray]

It looks like I have instigated another sharpening debate which was not my intention.

The chisels have been sharpened to the same degree on both sides although I didn't spend nearly so much time on the bevel as I did on the backs. Just a couple of mm on each one.

The chisels are like razors now, extremely sharp (I can show you all the plasters I have got on my fingers from handling them) and I expect to keep them that way with a quick touch up after each use (that way they'll be ready for their next use).

Actually the flattening was not too onerous as I did most of it whilst watching the football, I did think that I might have done some damage to my fingers though as once I had stopped doing little circles they seemed almost stuck in the holding position.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

In consolation, from one who has done the same in the past, it is useful having at least one with an inch or so of polish for guaging square and 45° cuts in stringing or similar.
A wide chisel is handy for emphasising knife lines for hinges and locks. Also easier to maintain horizontal (side to side)
To reduce "paper cuts" from the sides of your flattened chisels, wipe down the sides with a folded piece of fine wet & dry to within an inch of the sharp end. This'll just take off the edge, but by the time you've sharpened back that far won't affect the corners of the edge.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Jacob's photo is OK in the respect that the edge that meets the tip is continuously flat. The level of coarseness evident however, means that tool will not be sharp enough, whether the bevel receives the same (coarse) finish or a finer one. Mike.

You seem to be contradicting yourself Mike. In one sentence you say the "edge that meets the tip is continuously flat", which it patently isn't because I can clearly see the hollow behind the flattened tip, and the small striations left up to the tip by the sharpening medium, probably an oilstone or something similar. Then you reckon the "tool will not be sharp enough", to which the response has to be, not sharp enough for what? I hazard a guess it's more than sharp enough to knock some chips out of a lump of wood, assuming both the honing angle and the face have been worked on the same (assumed) stone.

I do think it's possible to sometimes get a bit too anal about sharpening chisels and plane irons, with some people recommending, for example, that it's imperative to go through several grits to numbers like 20,000 or whatever at every sharpening session. For my chisels (and to some extent my plane irons) I don't usually sharpen to anything finer than my 800 grit ceramic stone, or the 'fine' side of my oilstone, whichever I'm using at the time. I know the result isn't going to be as sharp as going through to additional finer grits. But in using a chisel to excavate a mortice, or some other fairly aggressive wood bashing, I've never found a very fine edge to offer a noticeable advantage over an 'adequate' edge, and I can't see a good reason to extend the sharpening routine.

There are times when something sharper really is required, perhaps for a bit of delicate paring or for picking out some detail or other, and I'll sharpen to a finer level, but I don't do that every time, just when I need to. Slainte.

 

[Jacob]

.......
The chisels have been sharpened to the same degree on both sides although I didn't spend nearly so much time on the bevel as I did on the backs. Just a couple of mm on each one........

The normal way is to spend as long as it takes on the bevel to bring up a burr right across and then take a few seconds to take off the burr on the flat side.
A chisel is never as easy to sharpen as when it is brand new - just a few seconds to get it going.
It all comes down to whether you want to do woodwork or to polish tools. There is a lot of misinformation about and it's taken me some years to realise it. I rather resent the time I've wasted in the past, following dodgy instructions from "enthusiasts"

 

[bugbear]

To reduce "paper cuts" from the sides of your flattened chisels, wipe down the sides with a folded piece of fine wet & dry to within an inch of the sharp end. This'll just take off the edge...

Agreed. It also provides an object lesson in how very much easier it is to blunt an edge than to sharpen it.

BugBear

 

[matthewwh]

Much of the misunderstanding seems to come from people's understanding of 'flat'.

It is easy to convince yourself that mirror polished all over means flat and that once achieved the surface will not need to be touched again (nothing personal Mike, it's a very widely held misconception).

Mirror polished all over actually means convex - a problem that will gradually worsen over time. Also, as the chisel is used, a wear bevel (rounding of the surface adjacent to the edge) occurs on both faces, removing the wear bevel without introducing or exacerbating convexity would require removing and re-establishing the entire polished surface each time.

Maintaining a concavity of less than a couple of thou takes a little more thought but a lot less effort. You can see with great accuracy where you are with respect to the theoretical condition of absolutely flat and repolish the underside of the edge in moments.

Regardless of the surface finish achieved (personal preference / job at hand), Jacob's photo shows precisely what a well prepared chisel should look like. It's far from being 'all' new chisels that are correctly ground when new Jacob, we have to be really careful with who we choose as suppliers in order to avoid the banana merchants.

 

[Trafalgar]

A concave back is desirable and there is certainly no need to remove it entirely. The back will inevitably become pretty well polished where it is supposed to in short order from just backing off the burr. The only way to keep a back from taking on a bit of shine is to never use the chisel.