Centauro 400 SSP Bandsaw (does anyone have a manual!)

[sams93]

Thanks Tom for your helpful post. I've ordered the helicoil thing now and it was only £5 in the end for the whole set. I will be able to have a good look at the rest of the machine over the weekend coming, and hopefully will be able to look into what is causing it to have so much vibration.

The previous owner gave me two blades with it, one is a dull 3tpi 3/4" blade, the other is a 1" 1.5tpi which looks absolutely lethal! apparently they used it on the machine but not for a while.

I'll order a new 1/2" 8tpi from tuffsaws in the next week for when I have got to the point where I am ready to try it out.

 

[Ttrees]

8TPI sounds very fine, something for ply or thin stock maybe.
Appologies if you're aware of this.
I suggest around 3 or 4TPI might be the most versatile for cutting anything from 1" to perhaps up to say 5", should that be the type of thing your wishing to cut.
Also you might note Centauro set up their saws with the heftiest blade whats rated for the machine,
though it may state it's capable to tension 1" blades...
It's Centauro so they might likely be honest, compared to other manufacturers of consumer machines, so it may be rated for 3/4 inch ones, decently thick blades that is.

IIRC I think it's Deema or Sideways who made or posted a good reference regarding that, and I believe there might be a guide on tuffsaws website either or also.

 

[sams93]

8TPI sounds very fine, something for ply or thin stock maybe.
Appologies if you're aware of this.
I suggest around 3 or 4TPI might be the most versatile for cutting anything from 1" to perhaps up to say 5", should that be the type of thing your wishing to cut.
Also you might note Centauro set up their saws with the heftiest blade whats rated for the machine,
though it may state it's capable to tension 1" blades...
It's Centauro so they might likely be honest, compared to other manufacturers of consumer machines, so it may be rated for 3/4 inch ones, decently thick blades that is.

IIRC I think it's Deema or Sideways who made or posted a good reference regarding that, and I believe there might be a guide on tuffsaws website either or also.

Yeah I have been doing some work with 18mm ply lately so the 8tpi is in my current bandsaw. I'll probably buy an 8tpi, 4tpi and maybe a 3tpi.

Ian at tuffsaws has always given me good advice previously so I’ll reach out to him to see if he can reccomend a range for this saw

 

[sams93]

Thanks for the advice on the thread, I did my first helicoil yesterday and it was much easier than I had anticipated. The grub screw to hold the thrust bearing in place is now able to clamp it properly.

 

[sams93]

So I got a chance to spend an hour fiddling with the machine this evening. I have taken some videos to try and illustrate the issues so hopefully they will upload OK.

I will try and post the individual bits separately so that it is easier to reply to them in parts.

1. The tyres
- The bottom tyre looks actually OK. It appears that both are flat. The bottom one has some pitting from where teeth have dug into it, but no areas where the tyre is completely missing etc.
- The top tyre looks to me to be in a terrible state - there are areas where the tyre is completely missing, and it is completely chewed up.

Photos here are of the top tyre

 

[sams93]

Photos of the bottom tyre

 

[sams93]

2. The top wheel appears to be loose on its bearing.

The bottom wheel is solid and has zero play.

The top wheel has a lot of play when not under tension, it rocks back and forth on the bearing it sits on. The bearing itself seems loose, and also the fit of the wheel onto the bearing.

I assume I am going to need to remove the wheel, then press the existing bearing out of the hole, then re-fit a new bearing and possibly a sleeve for it.. I haven't worked out how to get the wheel off yet so this will be my next task.

Photos of the mechanism that holds the wheel on, then I will upload a video in a moment of the play.

 

[Ttrees]

Hello again
I presume you may have seen this thread
http://www.thewoodhaven2.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=7131&p=117458&hilit=Centauro#p117458
One suggestion was it may be possible with a coke can.
That certainly looks way beyond what a bearing seating compound could do.

Having possibly a little of those issues myself, though not loose, something is up.

Many schools of thought on this, and maybe dependent on if you can get someone to do that for you, should you try a diy solution, I think you'll need new tires first, as they are in really bad shape.
You should be able to spot whether the wheels have a groove like in Sam Blasco minimax mm16 video.
You can get those from Scott&Sargeant, or possibly Conway saw.
Or you could opt for cambered tires from somewhere else for your use, what's more suited to curves, should those wheels have a groove, you may wish to fill them.
Alternatively, you could make yer own cheaply with some "rubber and gasket material" either,
You can get it as thick, and as wide as you like !

My most recent of tests have proved useful in determining whether the bore is accurate or not,
this method will highlight the furthest variant of the wheel (which may not actually be off)
but that's not to say the bore ain't.
The original intention was simply for wheel alignment, but it happened to show up the errors,
(after quite a bit of head scratching, I might add)
Should you wish to try shimming, it would be a very good way to check.

This plank measures 40mm thick (enough to brace against chassis and beam clearance)
x94mm wide, (enough to be able to keep the beam stable whilst marking out on the skew)
and to just about tuck into the right hand side of the upper wheel,
so you could draw a mark from the extreme.

You'd need new tires and a good blade to do so.

Though Ideally there wouldn't be any difference where the beam is placed on the wheel,
there is a noticeable variance on my upper wheel, my lower wheel is spot on, so not photographed.
This is just highlighting the use of the plank mainly, as I can't capture all the image to demonstrate the two line markings drawn, which shows up the highest point on the wheel, compared to the opposite.

You can find that out from either side of the machine...

You may note I've mapped out the wheels doing so, and put more tape on the highest spot of the wheel.
This line you can draw from one side, and then rotate that high point of the wheel to the other side of the machine.
Do the lines match up?

As you can see they don't on mine, the line drawn from the right side, being behind the one on the left,
what seems likely around the same error over the 24" wheel span, as the variance of the marks pictured below.

That's presuming the lower wheel is somewhere close to being aligned and not bananas, as that may influence the top wheel, so perhaps a little rinse and repeating needed.

Lower wheel alignment check, with acknowledgment of wheel error, so only ball park at best.

You should map out the bottom wheel also, just to see, mine was bang on, no variance in the line drawn.
Seems like I was getting a 3mm+ variance with my top wheel,
so getting a true reading is impossible without sorting out....

But it doesn't stop me from trying,

Also made note of where the rim was making contact, no correlation with the high spots in which the beam denotes.

Looks like you've got some bearing spacer issues going on, but that may be different if all is put right.
The bearing should sit proud on the shaft, so that the wheel retaining washer is keeping everything solid as below.
Seemingly less room for error with the circlip inside the bore on those wheels, most other manufacturers have the circlips on the outside of the bearings with a plastic spacer inside.
Perhaps Centauro do this for greater accuracy or performance, I dunno,
but it seems less forgiving of a setup, and very possibly relies on things being setup correctly, and kept that way.

This might be handy down the road a bit...

So now I've mapped differing variables and whatnot, so perhaps getting a little confusing.
With no other option than to pull the bearings out of the bores and try find a possible small burr, or whatever,
I've made one last ditch effort to try and get some more use from the machine, which might hopefully enable wheel alignment, stop those knocking and creeking noises, associated excessive fore and aft movement of the blade, and the problems with cutting all that results in...
without diving deep into finding out how to ascertain and fix those issues, that is!

If you can spot the difference, you might roll your eyes, lol.


Only saying it might make one consider this stuff if you happen to go the same route, and will try anything on the off chance it may work.
Should you wish to have a bit more chance of a successful bodge, whilst not be able to afford the boring job yet, as It's pretty bad looking to me, it may tide you over until then.
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/anyone-had-success-with-homeade-bandsaw-tyres.104443/page-2

Eager to get sticking more tape down, and truly get to know my machine inside and out.

Thanks for pictures
I'd still snap it off your hands for a hundred squid!

Best of luck with the machine project

Tom

 

[Ttrees]

Seems I'm in the same boat as yerself, swapping my wheel over also proved to give poor results, the line with the pencil being the one with the wheel back to front.
It's possible I might have loosened the rear bearing in the journal/bore up a bit more, as the race
now had some evident play, nothing to the extent of yours, but unfunctional none the less,
as I cant set my lower wheel & motor to match, until this is sorted out.

Glasses definitely required with this tool!, snapped the bit a few times getting the job done.

With some ponderings about how to go about fixing it, or getting it fixed..
Seems like I've got nothing to lose by having a bash at it.

Was throwing some ideas around, have a pair of the old bearings which are still in good nick,
could prove to be a plan b, but reckoned some stainless shim might be the best plan.

Found an old toaster, hoping it might turn out to have the right thickness shim stock for a speedi sleeve of sorts, might need to find something thinner if I can, stainless baking trays or whatnot
I suppose.
Getting just about started making a jig, and will incorporate a shaft through the existent good bearing, guessing you might not have that luxury, but...
removal of the split ring/circlip might enable you to get a tight fit, as when drawn out from the bore, it'll not be worn, should it be enough to make solid, I dunno.

All I know is leaving it unchanged is proving to be a proper head scratcher, and possibly asking too much, not that I'm even close to that stage yet.

Understandably I think you'll agree, this is bit of a long shot, just posted incase you might be trying to do it on the cheap.
Cheerio

Tom

 

[Ttrees]

I'll make a separate thread about this if it turns out to be successful.
Just incase it might be of interest to yourself

It's perhaps a bit optimistic, but seems worth a shot.
Fingers crossed it will work
All the best.

Tom

 

[sams93]

Hi - I haven't been able to do anything on the bandsaw for the past few weeks so it's something I need to take more of a look at when I get time (and it's not at my house annoyingly as I can't fit it in my workshop!!

No doubt this will all be of use when I do manage to find the time to look at it again! Thanks very much!!!

 

[sams93]

I made some progress on this yesterday. Managed to get the top wheel (the wobbly one!) off the machine. I still think the bore in the wheel which takes the bearing is the issue, but I need to remove the circlips holding the bearings in before I will know for certain. They are quite large circlips and i'm not sure whether my cheapo screwfix circlip pliers will be up to the task....

 

[Ttrees]

Looked like a bearing is a lot looser in the bore in your video than on mine.
Not sure if you might notice much, other than possibly a ridge where the bearing is,
compared to where it isn't
and I can't make out if the wheel is an non shouldered bore, like on JackEnglishmachines
Poitras videos which is just about the most informative subject on that,
or if like some other machines with a shoulder inside, which likely wouldn't be as simple as
stuffing some old bearings into the bore like what I'm attempting.
I guess it's an arrangement as with the S45 with a circlip inside the bore?

I've not came across anyone bodging their bandwheels, but it's not unheard of either folks using coke cans or shim stock.
I found some of..what's possibly the thinnest stainless steel within grasp of the common man,
in the form of a Silvercrest toaster.

Went ahead and used me tin snips, learned that you don't use the tip of the snips,
and keep feeding the sheet in the jaws whilst only half way closing them.

Not quite touching, say half a mm, which might just touch when stuffed into the bore.

This bearing from the motor and os the same OD as for the wheels, but a little wider and handy
for testing.
Seemingly getting close.

The bore tool seemed a bit reluctant to insert into the bore fully, with patient working to
get to depth for the sake of the tape & self adhesive abrasive.

Noted some bluing still remaining on the very bottom of the bore, so decided to
back off the cut (no masking tape)
and a few cuts from narrower strips of tape to concentrate on the bottom.
Then a full cut with masking tape, and another round of a little less narrow strips.

I didn't come across anything obvious so far, in terms of anything suggesting it was off centre.

Might try some cellotape to progressively deepen the cut, and perhaps to see if it might suit this method a bit better, should it give better feedback, whether that be an improvement for pressing the tool in, or abrading to depth without deforming the tape,
the lesser resistance might make things easier, will have to find that out.

Keep us posted
Tom

 

[sams93]

Not taken the circlips off yet to look at the bearings.

Did have a further look at the rubber tyres. Originally people reccomended keeping them, but I’m rather concerned about the condition (photos).

There are sizeable chunks missing in areas, and a lot of torn rubber throughout.

They seem to have a ridge which fits into a groove on the cast wheel, anyone know of where I’d even look for a similar replacement!

400mm wheel.

 

[Ttrees]

I guess these have the groove, you could ask them to be sure.
https://www.scosarg.com/tyre-for-sp400
Tom

 

[sams93]

Thanks Tom - I'll give them a ring and check.

I'll be having a go at getting the bearing out this afternoon, I have been looking at various sleeves etc, mostly they seem to be designed to fit on shafts and then be inserted into the ID of the bearing. I wonder if I could fit to the bearing and then press bearing into the hub.

https://www.skf.com/uk/products/ind...smission-seals/wear-sleeves/skf-speedi-sleeve
https://www.bearingstation.co.uk/pr...sleeve-skf-to-suit-shaft-46mm=44719?atts=6664

 

[Ttrees]

I'll do a proper post on this if it works, as I think I'm finished now.
Gonna reuse the original bearings for the races which seems the most straight forward,
but not before seeing if I could possibly utilize the best one in it's complete state.
Whichever solution it be, they need be spread apart by 0.4.
Hence why I previously made a spacer to ensure the bearings were snug against the circlips.
(only outer circlips on my machine, so a way of ensuring the shim doesn't wander inside the bore likely being necessary)
Aah, good ol procrastination at play.

I think finding some thin stainless might be a better idea for this bodgery,
as there's much risk that something fancier might get damaged straight off the bat.
Noting the bearings will likely get tight when approaching the exit,
as only the area where they were located is what needs shimming.

Now I'm not sure my Parkside micrometer is accurate or needing adjustment,(first use of it)
but the toaster stock seems somewhere close to 0.4mm.

Shoulda tidied it up first, as wasn't sure if it were going to get damaged whilst finding out if it fit or not.
Not quite touching when strapped around the bearing

Still touching in the bore

Shoulda tidied up beforehand and made parallel, as length depends on it,
and needed to tidy up the ends also,
so a larger gap was present than above in the end.

It's a lesson to note how much the shim stock will flatten and lay down properly, when it's sandwiched between bearing and wheel bore.
See the little gap above the 3.

All the best
Tom

 

[sams93]

@t

I'll do a proper post on this if it works, as I think I'm finished now.
Gonna reuse the original bearings for the races which seems the most straight forward,
but not before seeing if I could possibly utilize the best one in it's complete state.
Whichever solution it be, they need be spread apart by 0.4.
Hence why I previously made a spacer to ensure the bearings were snug against the circlips.
(only outer circlips on my machine, so a way of ensuring the shim doesn't wander inside the bore likely being necessary)
Aah, good ol procrastination at play.

I think finding some thin stainless might be a better idea for this bodgery,
as the risk of damaging something fancier might get damaged straight off the bat.
Noting the bearings will likely get tight when approaching the exit,
as only the area where they were located is what needs shimming.

Now I'm not sure my Parkside micrometer is accurate or needing adjustment,(first use of it)
but the toaster stock seems somewhere close to 0.4mm.
View attachment 159024

Shoulda tidied it up first, as wasn't sure if it were going to get damaged whilst finding out if it fit or not.
Not quite touching when strapped around the bearing
View attachment 159025
View attachment 159029
Still touching in the bore
View attachment 159026
Shoulda tidied up beforehand and made parallel, as length depends on it,
and needed to tidy up the ends also,
so a larger gap was present than above in the end.
View attachment 159027
It's a lesson to note how much the shim stock will flatten and lay down properly, when it's sandwiched between bearing and wheel bore.
See the little gap above the 3.
View attachment 159028

All the best
Tom

so did you put the shim stock into the hub and then press the bearing into that? I’m wondering what stops the shim from just moving as you press it?

 

[Ttrees]

@sams93 ... I think there are another two circlips inside the bore on your machine,
you might need to figure out if these are a tight fit in the milled slots,
I'd speculate what little play might be evident wouldn't have much impact on things for you.

If not the case, you can use a spacer like what seems like I might have to do, as you can't get bearings what's either 0.2 or 0.4 or whatever, wider than normal..and the same thing goes for a bearings OD also.

You've kinda hit the nail on the head with you're question though,
and that's whether I've actually gone home with the boring tool, since I've only partially inserted this extra wide bearing with the same OD as the wheel bearings, the question remains,
and whether one could could get away without having bearings/or the races
in behind the good'uns is an unknown.
Tricky to measure the ID to see if it's home without equipment, so unsure if the little ridge...
what's present for this journal would be enough of a wall to keep it there.

I wouldn't be confident in this case, though should it work, simply not worth the risk to me,
as this optimistic carry on to say the least.
Nothing wrong with having bit more mass anyway.

Tom

 

[sams93]

So I have just got the bearing out. Interestingly, the bearing was tight to remove on the hub outer side of the circlip recess.

There is a spacer which sat in between the bearings

From inspection of the hub, there appears to be a slight difference in the diameter of the area to seat the bearing, and the area between the bearings, maybe 0.2mm (I think you can see it in the photos i've taken). What is confusing me is that it does not appear to be damage, or wear from the bearing on the hub. There is also no evidence of damage to the bearing - so i'm a little lost at the moment!

It takes 6004RS bearings and the ones fitted are KOYO which is a decent brand, I have ordered two replacements.