Can you guess
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heimlaga
Established Member
Thanks Woodpig!
Ring":1au1h3z8 said:More to the point when are you doing a production run
Sadly I don't work fast enough to make them economically viable.
I just don't know why manufacturers like Record don't make them like this though. They could afford to buy in Alloy extrusion of a suitable shape which would cut down the machining a lot and the bearings are cheap enough.
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
Many thanks.woodpig":fsjrpeba said:Quick Sketch.
I assume the use of M5 bolts with the (I don't know the proper name) shims is purely because you couldn't get bearings with a 5mm Internal Diameter, and using a bolt of the bearing ID would have been too large for your 10mm rods?
On the rods for the side and thrust bearings I see you've milled a groove. Is that purely to make them easier to grip with your fingers and slide back?
What's your gut feel on how these are working? On my BS300 the standard top guide has the back of the blade running against the side of a bearing (well, actually just a disc). Common sense hints that running on the edge of a bearing (like what you've done) would be better and cooler.
I saw a video where Matthias Wandel showed that running on the side is much quieter than the edge, but I'm not too bothered about the noise as I always use ear defenders.
The 22 x 8 x 7 bearings used are commonly available and cheap to buy. Using sleeves and M5 bolts into the 10mm adjusters is pretty similar to what others are doing and made sense to me. Yes the grooves are just to grip the ends of the adjusters. The bearings are designed to take the load in the way I (and others like Carter) have used them. Doing it any other way means they're sure to wear out quicker. My bandsaw is now quieter with this setup than it was with the record "disc" bearings.
Some manufacturers take the easy way out and put the thrust (back bearing) the "wrong" way round. This is fine if it's easier for you to make but it may be a little noiser and wear out a bit quicker but it's only one bearing and as said they're cheap enough to buy.
Some manufacturers take the easy way out and put the thrust (back bearing) the "wrong" way round. This is fine if it's easier for you to make but it may be a little noiser and wear out a bit quicker but it's only one bearing and as said they're cheap enough to buy.
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
Thanks. I guess you make the sleeves yourself too?woodpig":1rgwy1cu said:
The bearing thing is an interesting issue. I see the point that using a sideways mounted thrust bearing (back of blade running against the side of the bearing) is quieter, but it does seem an odd thing to me. As you say, running something against the edge of a bearing is kinda what they're designed for - so even if it's noisier I'd have thought it would be better for the blade.
The standard Record disc thrust bearing is pretty awful. I've had it get pretty hot (it doesn't spin that well) so any sort of bearing (mounted either way) would surely be better.
Lacking metal working tools/skills I do wonder how successful a block (like what you've milled) would be if it were made from a dense hardwood. Probably it'd be OK I guess.
Yes I made all the parts.
I don't see how scraping the blade down the side of a bearing can be quieter? Here is another bearing guide made the "right" way like the Carter.
http://youtu.be/seZ2IJfylec
I don't see how scraping the blade down the side of a bearing can be quieter? Here is another bearing guide made the "right" way like the Carter.
http://youtu.be/seZ2IJfylec
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLF6 ... _bUCTCNUmowoodpig":2vm0wzrx said:
I'm not sure what running a bearing over a cast iron saw table by hand proves as only the fine edge of the blade is in contact with the bearing. I have to admit he is quite amusing at times though. He refused to get into discussion with another issue I found so he is quite single minded.
I'm happy with the Carter design so I'm sticking with it even though it would have been much easier to put the bearing against its normal rotation. I'm sure either design will work for you though so just pick the easiest for you to make?
Makes you wonder though doesn't it that the cheapest and easiest way of doing it would be with wooden blocks and yet no manufacturers use this method. Maybe it's the fire hazard?!
I'm happy with the Carter design so I'm sticking with it even though it would have been much easier to put the bearing against its normal rotation. I'm sure either design will work for you though so just pick the easiest for you to make?
Makes you wonder though doesn't it that the cheapest and easiest way of doing it would be with wooden blocks and yet no manufacturers use this method. Maybe it's the fire hazard?!
I looked at my own link again and noticed they sell on eBay.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Delta-10-Band ... SwA4dWH8Ds
Not sure if they make them to fit record bandsaws but the price is good.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Delta-10-Band ... SwA4dWH8Ds
Not sure if they make them to fit record bandsaws but the price is good.
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
I guess his table saw experiment was just a way of trying to test out why there was such a large difference in volume level on the bandsaw between the two arrangements.woodpig":29v4j13h said:
I'm with you on the Carter design - it makes much more sense to me (even if it's louder). The interesting question would be: why do most manufacturers do it a different way? It could be that Carter's design is an unnecessary faff that's more expensive to manufacture. It could be that it (Carter bearing layout) is an improvement, but so often companies will do something a certain way because "that's how it's always been done". Unless someone identifies a commercial advantage to changing anyway.
I thought I'd just go and check how "the big boys" do it; the guides on a Felder 510 look a lot more like the standard Record ones! You'd have thought they could afford bearings...
Ironically I guess that the closest thing to using wooden blocks (in terms of what's commercial available) would be ceramic blocks - which seem to have a bit of a mystique as being the holy grail of side guides (never used any so can't comment). Perhaps "two bits of wood" would be harder to sell :wink:
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
I guess it's part of the cost efficiencies needed to make something at a price you can sell (and make a profit) but they do look like cr*p compared to the guide block you made! I guess there's probably a few more hours in yours than their's - which I suspect would probably still be true even for a full CNC mill.woodpig":3jjcf7ln said:
Those welded ones may not look so good but I'm sure they'll work just fine and the price is right.
I made a tool some time back called a "nudger" by some folks. It's the rod Near the rear of this picture with a bearing on it the same as the ones on my guide. It's used for aligning stuff on my metal lathe.
As an experiment I moved the top guide back on my bandsaw and pressed first the periphery and then the edge of the bearing of the nudger against the back of the blade. There was very little difference in the amount of noise produced. As the face of the bearing is moving at different speeds thought relative to the bandsaw blade it did produce some sparks, not good on a machine that produces lots of sawdust. Someone on here is visiting me in a couple of weeks so I'll see what they make of the difference!
I suspect the bandsaw makes more noise actually cutting the wood than the bearings make so maybe we need quieter wood! :lol:
I made a tool some time back called a "nudger" by some folks. It's the rod Near the rear of this picture with a bearing on it the same as the ones on my guide. It's used for aligning stuff on my metal lathe.
As an experiment I moved the top guide back on my bandsaw and pressed first the periphery and then the edge of the bearing of the nudger against the back of the blade. There was very little difference in the amount of noise produced. As the face of the bearing is moving at different speeds thought relative to the bandsaw blade it did produce some sparks, not good on a machine that produces lots of sawdust. Someone on here is visiting me in a couple of weeks so I'll see what they make of the difference!
I suspect the bandsaw makes more noise actually cutting the wood than the bearings make so maybe we need quieter wood! :lol:
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
Indeed. Functional, but certainly not beautiful.woodpig":3mqcnsa3 said:
I do have some bearings in a drawer somewhere so I should try it.woodpig":3mqcnsa3 said:I made a tool some time back called a "nudger" by some folks. It's the rod Near the rear of this picture with a bearing on it the same as the ones on my guide. It's used for aligning stuff on my metal lathe.
As an experiment I moved the top guide back on my bandsaw and pressed first the periphery and then the edge of the bearing of the nudger against the back of the blade. There was very little difference in the amount of noise produced. As the face of the bearing is moving at different speeds thought relative to the bandsaw blade it did produce some sparks, not good on a machine that produces lots of sawdust. Someone on here is visiting me in a couple of weeks so I'll see what they make of the difference!
I suspect the bandsaw makes more noise actually cutting the wood than the bearings make so maybe we need quieter wood! :lol:
With the standard Record guides I obviously avoid having the side guides touching the blade. The rear thrust disc/plate does obviously produce some sparks (and a lot of heat) with sustained heavy cutting - though with wide blades and plenty of tension that's not too bad.
Wandel makes the point about wanting side guides actually touching the blade (otherwise what's the point). Again I suppose bearings for that would be louder than blocks, but as you say - once cutting, that noise is likely to overwhelm any bearing noise.
Nice workmanship above BTW.
transatlantic
Boom!
So to do this sort of thing, would you need both a metal milling machine and a metal working lathe? I'd love to get into metal working! .. making small pieces like this seems such a delight!
Ideally you need both but you can press the lathe into use for milling small items provided you have a vertical slide.
http://users.picknowl.com.au/~gloaming_agnet/mill.html
http://users.picknowl.com.au/~gloaming_agnet/mill.html
transatlantic
Boom!
okie doke, thanks.
novocaine
Established Member
whilst a milling machine would make it so much easier to do, you could do similar with hand tools (and a pillar drill), it isn't going to be fun, but it's doable. you'd have to change the design of the shafts to be more generic and there would be lots and lots and lots of filing to do. reckon what took the right honourable Mr woodpig to do in a few days would take you a good week if not more.
on the plus side, you'd have arms of steel by the end of it.
on the plus side, you'd have arms of steel by the end of it.
transatlantic
Boom!
novocaine":26dpwge3 said:
Heh. The thing that interests me about that kind of metal work is the precision, so I wouldn't really want to do it by hand.
