Can you buy window sections?

[milkman]

Just repaired the rail on a casement sash. A bit of a pain and probably could have done better just getting another sash made.
Anyhoo can you buy the sections found in windows or do joiners always make their own up? If anyone has a link that'd be great.

Cheers
Marko

 

[lincs1963]

Up until a few years ago you could buy standard window profiles 'off the shelf'. However, I don't believe they are available nowadays.
cheers, neil.

 

[Jacob]

If you can't do the mouldings you can usually get away with a bevel of the same overall size. Once painted it can be hardly noticeable.

 

[AndyT]

You can still buy matching sections round here - probably worth asking in your nearest timber merchants, assuming Hackney isn't entirely artists and cafes yet. Otherwise, the cheapest simplest way is to buy square section and an old moulding plane or two. If you want to be ready to match whatever you find, then the most flexible way is to use a rebate plane to define the flats, then a hollow to make the curve. Roy Underhill does a good demo in one of his programmes.

 

[Shane]

TP still stock window sections

 

[John Brown]

Champions Timber still list sash stile in a couple of sizes.
I need to make/repair a window, but it's the scribing to mate with the stiles that I won't be able to do, so I've trying to decide whether it's possible to mitre just the moulding, if you see what I mean, or rout my own profiles.

John

 

[Jacob]

Champions Timber still list sash stile in a couple of sizes.
I need to make/repair a window, but it's the scribing to mate with the stiles that I won't be able to do, so I've trying to decide whether it's possible to mitre just the moulding, if you see what I mean, or rout my own profiles.

John

Mitre no problem but it's easier to scribe - if you have a little out-edged gouge. You only cut one scribe but it's two mitres.
I'd do the mitre as very last thing - you put the components together and eyeball the mitre, making it on the tight side so it will compress in the last fraction of a mm.

 

[John Brown]

Not only do I not have a little out-edged gouge(as far as I know), I don't even know what such a thing is.

John

 

[AndyT]

Not only do I not have a little out-edged gouge(as far as I know), I don't even know what such a thing is.

John

If you watch the video I suggested - http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/3100/3113.html - you'll see how to do mitreing and scribing on a window at about 19 minutes in. He shows one of many ways to make the section, but the rest would apply even if you bought it ready milled.

 

[Jacob]

........
If you watch the video I suggested - http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/3100/3113.html - you'll see how to do mitreing and scribing on a window at about 19 minutes in. He shows one of many ways to make the section, but the rest would apply even if you bought it ready milled.

Good stuff from Roy. I like the way he throws himself at it, blood and all, without editing out the mistakes!
He gets the sequence right (Alf take note - you were asking about this on your blog but didn't print my explanation - why not?). Mortices, tenon cheeks, first.
His marking is good in principle but very clumsy the way he does it with a "story stick", holdfast, and stabbing at it with a knife. A "rod" is much better - the same thing but the marks go on a board and you take them off by stacking the pieces on top and take off with a set square. And a pencil much easier and all thats needed on painted joinery.
That bridle joint is a bit of a cheat. OK on a very small window in a protected position but wouldn't last long in the damp UK.
He doesn't show the difficult bit - the glazing bar ("muntin") crossover.

 

[John Brown]

Not only do I not have a little out-edged gouge(as far as I know), I don't even know what such a thing is.

John

If you watch the video I suggested - http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/3100/3113.html - you'll see how to do mitreing and scribing on a window at about 19 minutes in. He shows one of many ways to make the section, but the rest would apply even if you bought it ready milled.

Thanks, now I understand.

John

 

[John Brown]

........
If you watch the video I suggested - http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/3100/3113.html - you'll see how to do mitreing and scribing on a window at about 19 minutes in. He shows one of many ways to make the section, but the rest would apply even if you bought it ready milled.

Good stuff from Roy. I like the way he throws himself at it, blood and all, without editing out the mistakes!
He gets the sequence right (Alf take note - you were asking about this on your blog but didn't print my explanation - why not?). Mortices, tenon cheeks, first.
His marking is good in principle but very clumsy the way he does it with a "story stick", holdfast, and stabbing at it with a knife. A "rod" is much better - the same thing but the marks go on a board and you take them off by stacking the pieces on top and take off with a set square. And a pencil much easier and all thats needed on painted joinery.
That bridle joint is a bit of a cheat. OK on a very small window in a protected position but wouldn't last long in the damp UK.
He doesn't show the difficult bit - the glazing bar ("muntin") crossover.

Can you give me any clues as to how to make the muntin crossover? I have invested in a set of ovolo sash cutters from Wealden, and I think I just about understand how to go now, but I'd be interested to know what problems I might hit re. muntin crossover.

John

 

[AndyT]

There is more than one way of making glazing bars intersect neatly. You can have the square section bit join with a mortice and tenon, and scribe the moulding. Or you can cut pairs of mitres. Have a look at this video: http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2900/2913.html . Roy Underhill shows both options and then in detail how to do the mitred method.
I know that in the 18th century the glazing bar joints were reinforced with dowels - necessitating beautifully made dowelling boxes - but that may be a complication too far!

However, I'm just an interested amateur who's fascinated by this stuff - Jacob has done lots of refurb/rebuild work on sash windows and I hope will have some more practical suggestions!

 

[milkman]

Apologies for not posting back on this sooner. Thanks for your replies folks. The extras have made great reading for further avenues of learning.

 

[Jacob]

..
I know that in the 18th century the glazing bar joints were reinforced with dowels - necessitating beautifully made dowelling boxes - .........

And 19C
What is a dowelling box?
I've removed the last of these chapel windows and burnt all the scrap. I found just one or two glazing bars with dowels. No obvious reason for them being where they were I mean to photograph them but forget. Small dowels and pegs were hardly ever round but always square (ish) and cleft, not cut. There's a simple reason for this - round holes are easy to make, round dowels are not, unless a dowel plate is available. Square pegs in round holes is normal, but by the time they have been hammered through they are rounded off and somewhat tapered as they are progress through the hole. You often see vestiges of the squareness on the face side of the hole with a characteristic lenticular profile as the dowel gets squashed more across the grain than along it
Also trad joinery has virtually all joints doubled up, belt and braces: mortice + tenon + wedges + glue + pegs through. The dowel occasionally found in glazing bars is probably redundant but is just continuing the belt and braces tradition.

NB "Muntin" is american for "glazing bar". In Britain "muntin" means something else altogether.

 

[milkman]

RE: Dowels Do you mean a dowel through the bar to stile/rail joint?

 

[Jacob]

RE: Dowels Do you mean a dowel through the bar to stile/rail joint?

Glazing bars sometimes have dowels linking the stub tenons through the crossover mortice i.e. a hole drilled in the end of the tenon along the grain, not through it sideways. But I'd ignore this it's too much trouble and probably redundant. Otherwise they have no dowels anywhere else.
Mortices and tenons stiles/rails often have dowels through from one face to the other i.e. across the grain.

 

[bugbear]

Not only do I not have a little out-edged gouge(as far as I know), I don't even know what such a thing is.

John

Saw this thread bumped.

The commonest term is "scribing gauge", followed by "out cannel" (as opposed to "in cannel").

BugBear

 

[AndyT]

Not only do I not have a little out-edged gouge(as far as I know), I don't even know what such a thing is.

John

Saw this thread bumped.

The commonest term is "scribing gauge", followed by "out cannel" (as opposed to "in cannel").

BugBear

Yes but... at risk of adding to the confusion but trying to help ... it's a gouge (like a chisel but with a curved edge) not a gauge (measuring or marking tool) - and a scribing gouge is in-cannel - meaning it has the bevel on the inside of the curve, so it can cut a curve when held vertically and pushed straight down.

 

[AndyT]

..
I know that in the 18th century the glazing bar joints were reinforced with dowels - necessitating beautifully made dowelling boxes - .........

And 19C
What is a dowelling box?
I've removed the last of these chapel windows and burnt all the scrap. I found just one or two glazing bars with dowels. No obvious reason for them being where they were I mean to photograph them but forget. Small dowels and pegs were hardly ever round but always square (ish) and cleft, not cut. There's a simple reason for this - round holes are easy to make, round dowels are not, unless a dowel plate is available. Square pegs in round holes is normal, but by the time they have been hammered through they are rounded off and somewhat tapered as they are progress through the hole. You often see vestiges of the squareness on the face side of the hole with a characteristic lenticular profile as the dowel gets squashed more across the grain than along it
Also trad joinery has virtually all joints doubled up, belt and braces: mortice + tenon + wedges + glue + pegs through. The dowel occasionally found in glazing bars is probably redundant but is just continuing the belt and braces tradition.

NB "Muntin" is american for "glazing bar". In Britain "muntin" means something else altogether.

There is a dowelling box in this rather poor photo I took at the Building of Bath museum, with a brace and bit in place, showing that indeed the dowels were located in the ends of the glazing bars:

There is an article here by an enthusiastic collector/copier which explains some more: http://www.wkfinetools.com/tMaking/art/sashDowBoxes/sashDowBox1.asp

I expect the subject is covered in more detail in learned articles in old tool journals that I don't have!

The picture though does show some more relevant things such as what the glazing bars look like when mortice and tenon joints are used - with the verticals whole and the horizontals cut into individual pieces. Also the special templates to help with cutting bevels and scribes. There is also a special sash gouge (no 18) which has a wooden extension to the handle coming nearly all the way down the blade. This was apparently a depth stop, so the scribe cut could be made quickly and easily. Presumably as the blade got shortened by sharpening the user would also trim the wood away to adjust the stop.