Bought an old Stanley 4 1/2 - What level of refurbing?

[Bodgers]

I bought this Stanley 4 1/2 smoother for £30 delivered - which seems like an ok price to me. I could have gone cheaper, but I didn't want to buy a total basket case.

The sole is basically flat apart from a sort of very slightly shallow area at the back. So I might at least do a bit of flattening there. Blade needs some attention as it has some minor chips - maybe a regrind.

A little bit crazy, but alongside the Shooting plane I just ordered from Lee Valley, I bought a Veritas PMV11 blade and chip breaker for a 4 1/2 or 5 1/2. I thought I would use it on this or maybe even a future used 5 1/2 buy. Those won't be here until late March when the relatives bring those over.

I wasn't going to do much with this plane, but as I have sunk £90 into this now (with the fancy Veritas blade) I was thinking of giving this plane a full refurb.

The Japanning is basically ok but there are chips in some areas. The handles/tote are in tact but the finish is poor and there are some chips.

Would it be completely sacrilege to completely replace the Japanning, lap the sole and maybe even replace the totes etc.?

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[MJP]

"Would it be completely sacrilege to completely replace the Japanning, lap the sole and maybe even replace the totes etc.?"

and in doing so totally erase its history?

I think so.

Martin.

 

[Bodgers]

"Would it be completely sacrilege to completely replace the Japanning, lap the sole and maybe even replace the totes etc.?"

and in doing so totally erase its history?

I think so.

Martin.

Fair enough. I suppose it's getting the right balance between a useable tool that won't rapidly degrade further or leave it as a time capsule piece.

Not entirely sure how old this thing is anyway - it has the newer style higher front tote, but not the plastic handles of the later ones, so could be anywhere from 1950s to 1970s?

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[sunnybob]

by MJP » 22 minutes ago
"Would it be completely sacrilege to completely replace the Japanning, lap the sole and maybe even replace the totes etc.?"

and in doing so totally erase its history?

I think so.

Martin.

Hang on, do we KNOW the history of this plane?
All well and good refurbing to original, but this is a case of "triggers broom".
"had this broom 10 years, two new heads and three new handles".

If you have spent more money on a new blade than the price of the plane, how can you be preserving history?

You bought it use it, not put it in a glass case and throw sugar at it.

I got a 4 1/2 in a job lot of tools, in a similar condition to yours. i scrubbed off all the original wood coating and then used teak wood stain (it was what I had at the time)
Its a perfectly servicable tool, shame I dont ever use it.

With the prices talked about now, i just might take my 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 back to the Uk next time and sell them on. I think it will pay for my flights and food.

 

[nabs]

I agree with the above -it is a nice plane, but there is nothing remotely rare or unusual about it.

If you would like a pristine example I say go ahead and refurb it to whatever level you want to achieve.

On my used planes I just cleaned them up , but I did scrape of the finish from the wooden parts (whatever they used in the 40s/50s - varnish? - tends to crack and look awful).
I've repainted a few drills and other tools I've repaired, but only after removing the original finish entirely. If you do this, the best tip I can offer is to get a decent filling primer (it makes a much better result) . I used mipa rapidfiller.

 

[Bodgers]

by MJP » 22 minutes ago
"Would it be completely sacrilege to completely replace the Japanning, lap the sole and maybe even replace the totes etc.?"

and in doing so totally erase its history?

I think so.

Martin.

Hang on, do we KNOW the history of this plane?
All well and good refurbing to original, but this is a case of "triggers broom".
"had this broom 10 years, two new heads and three new handles".

If you have spent more money on a new blade than the price of the plane, how can you be preserving history?

You bought it use it, not put it in a glass case and throw sugar at it.

I got a 4 1/2 in a job lot of tools, in a similar condition to yours. i scrubbed off all the original wood coating and then used teak wood stain (it was what I had at the time)
Its a perfectly servicable tool, shame I dont ever use it.

With the prices talked about now, i just might take my 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 back to the Uk next time and sell them on. I think it will pay for my flights and food.

I'm not throwing away the old blade and breaker, I'll keep them and put them back in if I resell it. But point taken, I did buy it to use it.

I suppose that is basis of my question - do I actually need to be fussy about any possible heritage here - or do I just go all in, and go for it.

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[El Barto]

I think do as much or as little to it as you want. It's such an open question with no right or wrong answer. There's an argument for keeping it perfectly preserved and thus retaining its history and there's an argument for making it your plane, doing what you want to it and giving it a new chapter of its life and using it. I'm for the latter and I don't think it's sacrilegious.

If it was me, I'd probably give the sole a quick flatten and remove any sharp edges and also remove any surface rust (although it looks pretty clean). I'd also fettle the blade and cap iron (not really necessary though since you're replacing them) and probably remove the old varnish on the tote and knob before soaking them in linseed oil.

 

[sunnybob]

Heritage is provenance.
I happen to have got mine from a retired carpenter who bought it new sometime in the late 60's. But he didnt keep receipts, he threw the box and waxed paper away, theres no serial numbers, or even pictures of him holding it, so its just another plane.
One of millions (possibly).
use it and enjoy it.

 

[novocaine]

I wouldn't even bother to flatten the sole.

I'd sharpen the blade, set the cap and take it for a spin, if it takes the shavings I want then I'd leave it alone. if it doesn't then I'd give it a quick (maybe 20 minutes) fettle and see what happens, most likely I'd reset the frog and maybe run it over some 1200 grit.

it's a tool, use it, you never know, you might like it. :wink:

 

[Woody2Shoes]

If it were mine, I'd do little to it, beyond perhaps:

- flattening the sole using a piece of wet and dry paper on a marble slab or perhaps cast iron machine table, if necessary;
- cleaning up the tote and knob with sandpaper followed by stain/finish of choice, then re-attach - doing up the screws/nuts nice and tight;
- fitting the new blade and chipbreaker (perhaps requiring a new yoke I'd get from Workshop Heaven and a file to widen the mouth if necessary) plus adjusting the frog;
- cleaning and oiling everything and then get to work!

I'd keep the old blade and chipbreaker, which look like they don't need much work.

Cheers, W2S

 

[AndyT]

Continuing the theme... I suggest you just sharpen the iron and use it. You could fiddle about with it but there's no need to. Chipped black paint doesn't make a plane perform better or worse, it's just for appearance and some protection, but you are going to look after this and keep it in the dry, so it doesn't need anything fresh.
You could smooth out the chipped varnish on the handle if it's uncomfortable in use.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

It looks in quite nice condition to me as it is. I'd just grind and sharpen.

The only plane I've bothered to do any flattening on was one with a concave sole. Winding out the adjuster a shade between shavings it would take nothing, nothing, nothing, huge bite ! Well, there was that Acorn #3 which was so rusty I got it for free, but that was just for the challenge !

I guess it depends whether you prefer woodwork or pimping tools. Either is fine ...

 

[Tasky]

Looks better than the 4½ I got for about the same price.
Use it.

 

[Ttrees]

Unless it rocked about on a surface plate, I would be hesitant to lap it as the sole doesn't look
too thick from the piccy, those two things are important to me.
It looks ready to go do some work as I see it, and if the sole is thin it would not be worth the
restoration from my point of view, to make a really lovely plane.
You will not see any chips on the Japanning when it gets a nice layer of protective dust in about 5 seconds, so its not gonna rust.
I have considered to get or make a really hard cap iron as I have hit some cement before and
had to refettle the edge more than once.
Some boards I had to plane with the cap iron, as some iroko is very unforgivable
I wonder if a hardened cap would hold up, with the cement ?
Might be an option to get a single iron high angle plane at it instead beforehand.

Presuming you have some more steel tools, do you notice any rust where they are?
You might be as well off keeping that patina on it, if you think there's some traces elsewhere,
as fresh cast iron is prone to corrosion, even when oiled.

I keep an oil can with a t-shirt rolled up, actually its from an old Weider weightlifting belt
these things look good for making strops and power strop wheels too.
Bamboo utensil holders make nice looking pots also,
Look up... the essential oilpot Stanley Covington
and Paul Sellers oil can

Good luck
Tom

 

[Bodgers]

Thanks for the replies and advice chaps, much appreciated.

To answer Ttrees, the sole doesn't look too thin to my eyes. At a guess I'd say around 7mm. Looks thicker than a brand new cheap Stanley (not Sweetheart).

Rust is a minor problem in my workshop. It isn't permanently heated, it's a reasonably new build ext Garage with a damp course and basic roof insulation, so in the coldest weeks of the year books and manuals in there can feel a bit damp to the touch. I have had a bit of surface rust on the tablesaw before (now sold).

I have a drawer which I keep bags of Cat Silicate descant alongside the more expensive tools. Now I actually have a collection of planes I have a plan to build a 'proper' closed off wall cabinet.

I am undecided about oiling stuff up. With the Veritas on the way I need to do something. Too expensive to risk that. I have seen Sir Paul's oil in a can, but don't fancy mineral oil. I want something I can also put on plane soles without worrying too much about having to wipe loads of stuff off to get working.

I hear good things about the German Bailstol, which is natural. Expensive.

I saw a demo on the Lie Nielsen YouTube channel about using Camellia oil, but I think that's proven to go rancid and be questionable about doing a great deal for rust prevention.

A read a thread on here where a member did a pretty good test across all kinds of stuff and WD40 came out in top...

 

[sunnybob]

Youre never going to get an agreement on oiling, its even worse than a sharpening thread.

I have seen several threads rubbishing camelia oil. But I have been away for a total of 5 weeks since the start of december and the cast iron I wiped over before I went away with camelia oil is no worse (or better unfortunately) than when I left.
It can only go rancid if its applied too thickly.
I have used acf 50 in the past, with the same results as camelia oil.
I also have heritage wax now, and when I have a spare moment I will use that on the stanley planes that have picked up some surface rust this year.

For what its worth... I scrub the cast iron with a garry block and wd 40. Wipe completely clean and dry. Spray camelia oil (axminsters brand) and gently wipe off any excess.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I was skeptical about P.S's oil can - but it works perfectly and is safer than leaving vegetable oils hanging around. All I'd do with your plane is sharpen it and strip the varnish off the woodwork - that's personal taste, I find oiled or waxed andles more comfortable. Do what you like with it, though - it's not a museum piece.

 

[MikeG.]

You sure that's a 4-1/2, and not a 4? It looks identical to mine, which is a 4.

Common as muck. Great plane. Shaapen it, set it, and use it. If it doesn't work properly, find out why and fix it. It's a tool, not an objet d'art.

 

[MikeG.]

I was skeptical about P.S's oil can - but it works perfectly and is safer than leaving vegetable oils hanging around. ......

I've used the same stub of candle for about 20 years now. A quick zig zag on the bottom of the plane is all you need.

 

[Jacob]

It's been "refurbed" already by the looks of it.
Just sharpen and go!
If in good usable condition they tend to fetch a better price is they haven't been worked over by an enthusiast.