Bevel-up, angle low: woodworker confused..

[charley1968]

Hi!
Could someone be so kind as to educate me on the different uses of low-angle, bevel-up, York-pitch, etc.
I thought i knew it all, but now i've seen that Veritas offers a low-angle smoothing plane as well as a bevel-up smoothing plane. And that send me spinning...
I always thought that to minimise tear-out, one uses a high-angle, ca.50-55 deg., on difficult woods. And i have a low-angle, bevel-up block plane, that's good for end-grain. But why would i use a low-angle plane for smoothing/ finishing , hence maximising chances of tear-out??
Thankee in advance: A.

 

[Jacob]

Basically they offer endless variations on a theme in the hopes that you will buy every item on offer!
Stick with just one or two until you are confident that you can get the best out of them and only then consider whether or not you need anything else - which will probably be no.
NB you don't need a special plane for end grain - it just has to be sharp. They are just trying to sell you another piece of unnecessary kit.

 

[undergroundhunter]

Basically they offer endless variations on a theme in the hopes that you will buy every item on offer!
Stick with just one or two until you are confident that you can get the best out of them and only then consider whether or not you need anything else - which will probably be no.
NB you don't need a special plane for end grain - it just has to be sharp. They are just trying to sell you another piece of unnecessary kit.

+1 I use a 4, 5 or a wooden jack for soothing end grain. My only low angle plane a a stanley block and that gets almost zero use. If I cant get it with a normal bevel down plane then I crack the no80 scraper out. Its all just a sales pitch.

Matt

 

[bugbear]

Hi!
Could someone be so kind as to educate me on the different uses of low-angle, bevel-up, York-pitch, etc.
I thought i knew it all, but now i've seen that Veritas offers a low-angle smoothing plane as well as a bevel-up smoothing plane. And that send me spinning...
I always thought that to minimise tear-out, one uses a high-angle, ca.50-55 deg., on difficult woods. And i have a low-angle, bevel-up block plane, that's good for end-grain. But why would i use a low-angle plane for smoothing/ finishing , hence maximising chances of tear-out??
Thankee in advance: A.

It's all about Effective Pitch (sometimes called EP).

It's not the low-angle-ness that allows you to reduce tear out, it's the bevel up-ness combined with a high bevel angle that gives a high effective pitch, same as a high angle frog with a bevel down blade.

A low EP is good for end grain (see the late Leonard Lee's book), but a high EP reduces tearout.

BugBear

 

[worn thumbs]

I'll add my voice to the two previous comments.Sharp is much more important than anything else and a bevel down plane will probably have the bevel at a lower angle than even a low angle block plane.The users of honing jigs may protest that they know exactly the angle that their bevel is;I would be more impressed it they could achieve sharpness without gadgetry.

 

[JJ1]

I thought i knew it all, but now i've seen that Veritas offers a low-angle smoothing plane as well as a bevel-up smoothing plane.

One advantage of the Veritas Bevel Up Smoother is the advantage of being able to replace the blade in a matter of seconds to suit the job in hand, i.e. 25 degrees for soft wood and end grain, 38 degrees for minimizing tear out and 50 degree blade for even trickier timber. Another advantage is the blades will also fit the Veritas Low Angle Jack plane and the Veritas Bevel Up Jointer.
Veritas make some excellent planes so should you decide to go that route I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

 

[undergroundhunter]

I'll add my voice to the two previous comments.Sharp is much more important than anything else and a bevel down plane will probably have the bevel at a lower angle than even a low angle block plane.The users of honing jigs may protest that they know exactly the angle that their bevel is;I would be more impressed it they could achieve sharpness without gadgetry.

Of course you are 100% correct, sharp fixes everything, along with a tight set cap iron and a shallow setting you can plane most things. I also don't subscribe to gadgetry either.

Matt

 

[deema]

Very few people I believe work with highly figured wood, or woods where tear out is a real problem often. Bugbear has already highlighted that end grain cuts better with a low Effective pitch and tear out is reduced by a high pitch or York Pitch.

For every bevel down plane, the angle at which you sharpen and hone the blade is irrelevant. It doesn't affect the cutting action of the plane. This makes these type of planes easy to sharpen and set the blade by free hand sharpening.

For bevel up planes, the Effective Pitch is determined by the angle of the bed (say 20 degrees) added to the angle you sharpen the blade to (say 25 degrees). The EP is the sum of these two angles, (the example would be 45 degrees or 'common' pitch which most bevel down planes have as their standard pitch).

This makes getting a consistent cutting action dependant on how accurately you sharpen and hone the blade. The use of sharpening guides allows precise and repatative EP to be generated. However, for most people conversant and adept will have sharpened a bevel down blade in the time it takes to find the sharpening guide.

The concept that bevel up planes are by nature low angle is not IMO correct. Most are effectively actually Common pitch, the same as a bevel down plane. You can resharpen a blade to increase the EP on a bevel up plane, and then resharpening it to another pitch but in doing so you wear out the blade quickly and it takes a lot of effort. For this reason most people wth a BU plane have two or more blades with sharpened to different angles . The cost of a decent blade is about the same as that of a frog with a different pitch for a bevel down plane. So to me there is actually no real advantage. BU planes IMO due to the need to accurately and repeatable sharpen at a given angle are more difficult to own than a bevel down plane.

Since most woods that will have tear out can be scrapped, most people I believe like me either use a No 80, scrapper plane or hand scrappers to tackle difficult woods. These guarantee that no tear out will occur, however don't leave as fine a surface as a plane. However, most people cannot tell the difference!!

 

[charley1968]

@bugbear: would that book you're referring to,be The Complete Guide to Sharpening?
Thank you for replying, all and yes, i'm aware that a keen edge works better than a dull.
And i don't quite agree with the statement that it's inherently better to sharpen freehand as opposed to using a jig..
But i'll open that can of worms at another time, ok?

 

[charley1968]

That was an enlightening post, deema! All my questions answered. My sincere thanks for that.

 

[Vann]

Could someone be so kind as to educate me on the different uses of low-angle, bevel-up, York-pitch, etc.
I thought i knew it all, but now i've seen that Veritas offers a low-angle smoothing plane as well as a bevel-up smoothing plane. And that send me spinning...

Veritas make very nice planes, but they sure have a problem with terminology.

All their Low-Angle planes are Bevel-Up - with the low angle being 12°. They also make at least one Bevel-Up block plane that has a 20° bed and therefore doesn't fit in the "low angle" catagory. However:

Some of their planes share common blades. For example the 2¼" blade fits the BUS (bevel-up smother), the LAJ (low-angle jack), and the BUJ (bevel-up jointer). All three of these planes are 12° bed low-angle bevel-up planes - yet two are called "Bevel-Up" and the third is called "Low-Angle" #-o There's no difference (apart from the Veritas given name). No wonder people get confused.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Corneel]

@bugbear: would that book you're referring to,be The Complete Guide to Sharpening?
Thank you for replying, all and yes, i'm aware that a keen edge works better than a dull.
And i don't quite agree with the statement that it's inherently better to sharpen freehand as opposed to using a jig..
But i'll open that can of worms at another time, ok?

You allready opened it :twisted:

Freehand is "better" for the one simple stupid reason that a well rounded handtool woodworker needs to sharpen more stuff then just straight edges. You undoubtably will have to sharpen a gouge, an axe, a knife or whatever, some day. And then it is nice to have the feeling in your fingers allready. I suppose all those things can be sharpened with yet another gadget, but what is better about having a drawer full of them and an empty bank account? Especially because freehand sharpening is not difficult (if you don't have some kind of handicap of course).

That's all. Thanks you. :mrgreen:

 

[Jacob]

@bugbear: would that book you're referring to,be The Complete Guide to Sharpening?
Thank you for replying, all and yes, i'm aware that a keen edge works better than a dull.
And i don't quite agree with the statement that it's inherently better to sharpen freehand as opposed to using a jig..
But i'll open that can of worms at another time, ok?

Opening time!
It's inherently easy to sharpen freehand.
It's inherently difficult to sharpen with a jig because;
1 You need a jig, and other jigs for other tools, all of which have to be bought.
2 You have to fit the jig precisely.
3 Jigs don't work too well on worn stones so you may have to flatten therm.
4 To flatten you may have to buy more kit such as diamond plates
5 If you flatten stones they don't last as long, and you have to replace your diamond plates eventually
6 er.. could go on (yawn!)

 

[iNewbie]

Well it didn't take long for Sharpening Jig Neurosis crew too spew...

Seriously this sh*t gets old.

 

[ED65]

I always thought that to minimise tear-out, one uses a high-angle, ca.50-55 deg., on difficult woods. And i have a low-angle, bevel-up block plane, that's good for end-grain. But why would i use a low-angle plane for smoothing/ finishing , hence maximising chances of tear-out??

It's not the bedding angle that matters it's the angle of the steel as it meets the wood, so different bevel angles change the angle of attack. I recently restored an old Stanley block plane and sharpened the iron at a ridiculously steep angle to improve its tearout performance (in combination with a tight mouth).

What a low-angle plane allows you to do most easily is change the angle of attack from quite low to quite high by simply swapping in different irons. One iron can have a low-angle edge for very easy-planing woods (giving lower resistance) and another can have a high angle for more challenging woods (at the cost of higher resistance).

BUT, this ignores the fact of the most important thing to ever come along when it comes to tearout prevention: the cap iron. The cap iron trumps all other things including sharpness of the edge, bedding angle, skewing, you name it.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

I have a bevel up jack plane (number 5 equivalent size). The bed angle (where the iron rests) is 12 degrees. I have 4 blades for it as follows:

25 degree toothed blade - acts like a row of tiny chisels. This is used for roughing out stock to make it flat and removing large amounts of material. It does not generally cause tear out, even on difficult grain.
25 degree bevel - For end grain. Total Angle of attack is 37 degrees. I sharpen this up to 400 grit.
25 degree with 35 degree secondary. Total Angle of attack is 47 degrees, similar to a typical bevel down (Stanley/record type) plane, which are usually 45 as standard. - For smoothing. On reasonably straight grained wood, this produces a perfect finish. Will cause tear out on complex grain at times. This is sharpened to 600 grit.
25 degree with 45 degree secondary. Angle of attack is 57 degrees. - For smoothing very difficult grain. Has never produced tear out for me, even on the worst sections of timber. Again sharpened to 600 grit.

It is possible to get a 90 degree blade so the bevel up plane will also act as a scraper for complex exotics. I haven't had the need for one yet as the blades I have set serve my needs.

I've found this simple plane with the above blades to do almost anything I ask of it and do it well.

 

[custard]

I've found this simple plane with the above blades to do almost anything I ask of it and do it well.

Martin, I admire your enthusiasm but cool your jets mate! You've had your bevel up jack for what, five days?

I've used one for five years, on hundreds of projects, and scores of different timbers, but I'm not sure I've gathered enough practical experience to give such a ringing endorsement!

Issues I've found so far include the following,

-I started with a LN, the depth adjustment screw was both rough and stiff, I tried easing it with valve grinding paste but it didn't help, so I returned it. I've talked to a good few users of LN BU jacks and some share the problem and some don't.

-I switched to the Veritas version. The tote really wasn't to my liking, no problems I made a replacement, after all that's what woodworkers do. Overall I prefer the Veritas version (I find the lateral adjustment feature an asset rather than reaching for a little hammer) but hey, I know excellent craftsmen who prefer the LN version and produce great furniture, so I guess it's down to personal preferences at the end of the day.

-Whichever one you use BU is both a blessing and a curse. It's a blessing because of the versatility and efficiency. It's a curse because it's much harder to establish and maintain a precise camber on a BU.

-Forget hand grinding on a BU plane. On any thick blade you'll probably be re-grinding after every five to seven honings, and even with an extra course diamond stone it's just too slow to be practical. To use one of these planes efficiently you'll need a powered dry grinder or a linisher. Which then means you'll need somewhere to put it, and on a dry grinder you'll also need a replacement stone, a grading wheel, almost certainly you'll need a replacement tool rest, and you'll definitely need the skill to use it. So that should all be factored into the equation when you're deciding if a BU plane is for you.

 

[custard]

I would be more impressed it they could achieve sharpness without gadgetry.

The only thing that impresses me is the quality of the furniture that someone produces, I couldn't care less if they used a honing guide or not.

 

[custard]

BUT, this ignores the fact of the most important thing to ever come along when it comes to tearout prevention: the cap iron. The cap iron trumps all other things including sharpness of the edge, bedding angle, skewing, you name it.

And this is based on what? First hand practical experience or stuff you've read?

I've been working a lot with closely set cap irons since an American chap posted his videos on this forum. It's a really useful technique, but despite all my efforts so far, on many different timbers, I'm still a long way from saying it "trumps all other things".

I'm about to start hand planing a highly figured slab of Bubinga that's about 1800mm x 600mm, so too big to pass through my thicknesser. As a timber it's roughly the density and hardness of a Rosewood, I'm not looking forward to it but it's got to be done. That job will add a small increment to my own knowledge of closely set cap irons, but I'll still be a long way from a conclusion.

 

[D_W]

I've found this simple plane with the above blades to do almost anything I ask of it and do it well.

They're just not very good for dimensioning (heavy work) when compared to older planes. Cambering the iron is a pain in the rear, the feel is off (in heavy work - plane with a higher center of gravity and a different handle orientation is much better), etc. In short, I can get done twice as much work (prior to smoothing) with two wooden planes as a person in similar fitness could get done with one (or two) bevel up planes.

If one has a thickness planer and never really does heavy work, then they are fine. Never really caught on with professional woodworkers even though they were available from stanley for quite some time.

The notion is also floated that they are needed to do end grain work productively, but I find that to be false, too. A stanley works fine when set up properly.