Applying spirit dye

[Leif]

I want to stain some elm, and I prefer the look of oil based wood dye to coloured Danish Oil. The former highlights the grain more. But it is not compatible with Danish Oil as the latter is a solvent. So yesterday I tried spirit stain on a coat rail. It highlights the grain, but I was unable to get the high quality finish I want. It was okay, but I can see imperfections in the colour. I applied it with a brush and a cloth. The issue seems to be that it dries very quickly. The temp in the garage was ~25C.

How do you apply spirit stain so as to get an even finish? I want to do a coffee table, with a large surface area.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Very quickly indeed with a brush or rag is the standard answer. Flood the surface, keep it wet for a few minutes and then wipe off going with the grain using a clean dry rag to achieve an even coat. An alternative is to apply it with a spray gun, although I don't know if you have one, gradually building up the colour.

The challenge of applying spirit dye evenly on to large surfaces and fiddly parts is one reason why water based dyes are sometimes preferred. The water based dyes give you more time, although you generally need to raise the grain once or twice with warm clean water and knock back the fuzz created with abrasive paper prior to applying the dye. You'll also find water soluble dyes aren't so effective at penetrating into the crevices of coarse textured woods - they tend to bridge across the voids, but a few drops of detergent added to the dye will help with this because it reduces the surface tension of the water. Slainte.

 

[Leif]

Thanks Sgian Dubh, that's very helpful. I will experiment with some offcuts. I'll also look into spray guns, one might be useful in the long term.

 

[Leif]

Can anyone recommend a modest priced spray gun suitable for occasional non professional use on furniture?

 

[Matt@]

just to emphasise re. above info regarding applying spirit stain - wiping it off lightening fast would the appropriate term to use. For a coffee table, once you have flooded and flooded is the right work the top with spirit stain you need to "mop" up the excess as fast as possible and for that size surface I would be looking at wiping it off within 10 seconds - its that quick! For the wiping off i would be using kitchen towel and for a coffee table six feet of towelling wouildnt be too much...

 

[Leif]

I honestly do not think I can do that. The top yes, but there is also the frame and legs, and that would be hard. I have experimented by applying neat oil based medium oak stain and dark oak oil based stain mixed with Danish Oil, to two areas of some wood, maybe Cedar, left over when I ripped out the old kitchen. I'm hoping the DO will stabilise the stain, due to the hardeners, allowing me to apply neat DO on top without it wiping off.

Alternatively, water based stain with some detergent!

 

[Matt@]

the tops are always more difficult as the bigger expanse the more tricky the application. legs and frames are very much more controlable and easier to stain using spirit stain as you can do sections at a time. Also, the legs and frame are not focal points and do not need to be 100% perfect in the same way a top has to be...

 

[Leif]

My reckoning is that if I do the frame and legs, I will start at one leg, and work my way round. When I get to the starting point, the dye will be dry, and the join will show as the overlap will be a second coat. I can imagine flooding the top, wasteful, but doable.

 

[Matt@]

My reckoning is that if I do the frame and legs, I will start at one leg, and work my way round. When I get to the starting point, the dye will be dry, and the join will show as the overlap will be a second coat. I can imagine flooding the top, wasteful, but doable.

yes you're correct to a point but in staining legs you would stop at where legs joint the rails. Theres a bit of a knack but as I say the finished result isnt so critical as its legs not top. I get the feeling you are a poster on another forum by the name of WWT?? - you need to get clear what is spirit stain and what is oil stain becuase when talking about mixing a stain with danish oil if you get that wrong you are in a whole pile of trouble

 

[Leif]

Yes, on DiyNot. I know the difference between spirit and oil based dyes. I originally used oil based dye followed by Danish Oil, and discovered that when you rub in the DO, the dye comes off, and if you don't rub it in, it may run. I had to strip back one table top for that reason. It also appears to seal the wood, so the DO develops a more glossy finish. Solvent based dye seems to also seal the wood. But it has its own issues.

I am a bit retentive, so I want parts of the frame that show to be dyed well. That is why I am also experimenting with mixing oil based dye with DO, hoping that the hardeners in the DO seal the finish allowing additional coats of DO to be rubbed on. The test wood with OB dark dye plus DO looks the same as test wood with OB light dye. I tried spirit dye plus DO, and I am not convinced it soaked into the grain so well. I happen to have dark and light OB dye to hand, as well as some spirit dye.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

It sounds like you are working the Danish oil too much, whichever dye you use. You have, however, found one the challenges inherent in applying a wipe on/wipe off finish over wood that's been coloured with dye or stain. Oil based dyes are usually formulated with white spirit and/or naptha, which also happen to be solvents in Danish oil, so the white spirit and/or naptha in the oil is dissolving the dye. The solvent for spirit dyes are usually alcohol, although cellulose thinners and other solvents are also compatible, but again the Danish oil can have a tendency to lift the colour because there's often a bit of methanol in it. You would get some lifting of dye colour even if you used water based dyes.

In reality, what you need to do is to get the first coat of Danish oil on quickly and thinly, and then not mess around with it, and especially avoid rubbing and burnishing the applied finish. To do this apply it in thin, even strokes with a high quality brush and avoid going over and over the same spot because all this does is pick up dye that's been re-dissolved and move it around leading to patchiness. Once you've got the first coat or two on like this you should be able to apply subsequent coats in the normal manner and wipe off as described on the can.

Danish oil, as is the case with many of the finishes sold as 'oils' e.g., teak oil, is in essence a sort of varnish 'lite' because the main constituents are usually naptha or white spirit (usually a significant percentage of the formulation, possibly 30- 50%), something like boiled linseed oil or perhaps pure tung oil, and a resin that dries to form the film: there are often additional constituents such as a tiny bit of methanol (as already mentioned) and heavy metal driers. So, if you can get the first coat or two on without re-dissolving and moving the underlying dye about you should have more success.

In reality, if I want one of those 'close to the wood' appearances which is what you get with Danish oil, I simply grab a can of oil based varnish, put 30- 40% white spirit in it and apply two to four coats of that. It's just as easy to apply and a hell of a lot tougher. Slainte.

 

[Leif]

What you describe is exactly what the manufacturer (Blackfriars) told me when I asked if their OB dye was compatible with DO. They said use a brush, not a rag.

Does oil based varnish give the natural look of DO (maybe that is what you mean by 'close to the wood'), and is it as hard wearing? I know people say finishes such as acrylic varnish are tougher than DO, but when damaged, they crack/chip, whereas damage to DO is more natural, if that makes sense, and can be 'touched up' with wax polish. I have a 200 year old oak chair, which I assume is finished with a dye of some sort, followed by oil. It has worn well.

 

[Leif]

I should add that the aim is to highlight the grain. As I understand it, there are stains and dyes. Stains are pigments, like paints, and give a more even colour. Dyes are absorbed into the wood, and accentuate the grain. That old chair of mine has strongly accentuated grain, far more so than Ercol furniture, or furniture finished with coloured DO.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Does oil based varnish give the natural look of DO (maybe that is what you mean by 'close to the wood'), and is it as hard wearing? I know people say finishes such as acrylic varnish are tougher than DO, but when damaged, they crack/chip, whereas damage to DO is more natural, if that makes sense, and can be 'touched up' with wax polish. I have a 200 year old oak chair, which I assume is finished with a dye of some sort, followed by oil. It has worn well.

Well, both Danish oils and oil based varnishes give a 'look' to wood, but to know which one you want on your piece you'll need to experiment with them. I know what the 'look' is because I'm reasonably familiar with a range of wood finishing materials and techniques, but it's hard to describe the subtle differences in character of each finish, and even the finish imparted by one brand of varnish is different to another brand, which also happens to be true when using two different sheens of varnish supplied by the same manufacturer.

Oil based (sometimes sold as solvent based) varnish is definitely tougher than any of the 'oils', eg, Danish oil and Teak oil, etc. Damaged Danish oil finishes aren't especially easy to fix, although it's sometimes said that they are. A bit of wax won't repair a ding, nor will it repair water damage, and Danish oil is a relatively easy finish to damage, whereas varnish is tougher. Varnish is harder to repair than Danish oil, but it's also more resilient, so you're making a choice between swings and roundabouts. By a 'close to the wood' appearance I was trying to get across the idea that the varnish film (when applied thinly with a rag) isn't a thick one, which is what you get with three or more coats applied with a brush or spray gun.

I can't help much with your 200 year old chair because you say nothing else about it other than that. It could be a country piece in native hardwoods, or it might be a high end Regency piece out of imported Cuban mahogany with sabre legs. The country piece may have had nothing more than some linseed oil or wax applied, and age has done the rest. The Regency piece may have been coloured with anything from vegetable derived dyes to brick dust to lamp black (soot), and polished up with 'spirit' varnish or even French polished as French polishing was really getting going at about that time. Aniline dyes didn't make an appearance until about the 1850s, and modern dyes and stains are a whole new development on top of that. Danish oil almost certainly didn't exist back then because the petro-chemical industry is necessary for its formulation, and that didn't really get going until later in the nineteenth century. Slainte.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I should add that the aim is to highlight the grain. As I understand it, there are stains and dyes. Stains are pigments, like paints, and give a more even colour. Dyes are absorbed into the wood, and accentuate the grain. That old chair of mine has strongly accentuated grain, far more so than Ercol furniture, or furniture finished with coloured DO.

Dyes and stains are different, or at least they used to be different when I started in this profession. Over the decades the distinction has become blurred and everything seems to get the label 'stain' nowadays, even by the manufacturers of wood dyes and stains. I have no idea why even the manufacturers add to the confusion by what appears to me to be deliberate mis-labelling of their products. Of course, I could be wrong, and there is in fact no difference between dye and stain, but if that's the case there's a lot of us old furniture makers out there that were taught there is a difference, ha, ha.

Dyes have no pigments in them. Stains have pigments, but they might also contain dye. Stains (with pigment) have perhaps more application in coarse textured woods than they do in fine textured woods because the pigments lodge in the open pores of the wood, which actually in may ways accentuates the wood's character.

I think there are two ways to get the end result you want. The first is to experiment a bit and then go for it or, secondly, hand over the piece to a professional, describe what you're after, and let the professional get the job done in a tenth of the time. I suspect you prefer the first option. Slainte.

 

[Leif]

The 200 year old chair is made from oak, and has been described as a farmhouse chair. It is simple, with peg joints, turned legs, and back components. The wood is pale, but dark along the grain. I assume it is finished with dye and vegetable oils. The chair on the left is almost identical:

http://www.antiques-atlas.com/antique/c ... /ac051a249

Although the above are ~1900, IIRC mine was dated by Bonhams to ~1800 when they valued my late mother's furniture.

My thinking about oil finishes is that they age well, take knocks and bruises, and just polish up. Hard varnishes such as acrylic crack.

No I would not pay a professional to do this, it defeats the point. Part of the exercise is to learn. I don't earn a fortune, and I cannot justify paying for high grade furniture, or finishing, and to be honest I cannot justify having expensive items in my house. The sort of furniture you make, wonderful though it is, is for people with more means. I like old Ercol furniture because I like the 60's designs, and the use of good hard wood (well, it's good to my eyes).

 

[Sgian Dubh]

If your chairs are that age, and very similar to that rustic vernacular style in the images in your link I suspect the most likely finishes used on them originally would probably have been several coats of wax, or linseed oil possibly followed by wax over several years, or lastly they may have had some spirit varnish applied and waxed over, again several times over the years. It's possible they may have been dyed, but the colour in the photographed images doesn't strike me as being from dying, and I suspect is primarily the result of age where the polish, whatever it is, has darkened over time, and dirt has got into the open pores of the wood as well as having become embedded in the finish. The other significant feature I see there is, I think, the result of bleaching from UV rays (sunlight) and oxidation of the wood fibres, as well as evidence of rubbing at wear points, eg, the top edge of the side rails surrounding the seat.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to achieve. I think you have to decide if you are attempting to restore your chairs with a period appropriate finish, or simply make them attractive and usable without worrying about it being a true restoration or conservation job. Certainly, if it's the former, then Danish oil isn't right. Have you considered simply cleaning the old finish off as best you can with a chemical stripper and applying one or two light coats of shellac, perhaps over some dye, and following up with wire wool and wax? Spirit varnish was around in the early 1800s, and spirit varnish at the time included shellac in the formulation. Slainte.

 

[Leif]

Aha, I had not considered that the accentuation of the grain was due to aging of wax and/or oils.

 

[RogerS]

Leif

You asked about a spray-gun. I have used this gun very successfully http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ax ... prod23266/ ..Admittedly i already had a small compressor and so this may not be an option for you.

Like you I had had problems of applying shellac over a stained/dyed (take your pick!) surface and found that the stain was dragged out. Diluting shellac with some meths allowed me to spray a thin coat which sealed the surface and without any dragging out. You do need good ventilation !

 

[Leif]

Thanks.

For what it is worth, I applied a coat of spirit stain to a coffee table top, and I was surprised how long it remained 'open', it turned out to be easy, maybe the frame is doable, by working along two edges simultaneously until they meet on the other side. The secret of painting a house door is to work fast, but carefully, and this looks to be the same.