Angles on tools.....

[Modernist]

I do use a Veritas guide on waterstones which I find excellent, using both plain and cambered rollers. I don't bother with micro bevels.
When I have a pile of tools with the bevels needing grinding back I switch to the Tormek and have a session which normally lasts me a couple of months. It doesn't take long and generally the above does not make sharpening an issue.

It helps to have a selection of chisels and planes to choose from

 

[Paul Chapman]

When I have a pile of tools with the bevels needing grinding back I switch to the Tormek and have a session which normally lasts me a couple of months. It doesn't take long and generally the above does not make sharpening an issue.

Very similar to what I do. I suspect most people eventually find a method that works for them and, in practice, sharpening isn't an issue for most woodworkers, despite the never-ending debates

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[markturner]

Hi, I hesitate to add my opinion here, as I am but a novice in the world of sharpening etc, despite being a carpenter/shopfitter for the last 30 years, believe it or not, I never used chisels & hand planes much, (routers for machining door hinges and lock plates etc) anyway, so I never sharpened much and when I did, I was self taught, so never questioned what I was doing as long as it worked. now, having started learning the fine art of furniture making, its a whole new world. I have an eclipse jig, a Veritas jog and both jap stones and the scary sharp system.

The problem I find sharpening freehand is the blade tends to rock slightly as you go back and forth and while I can get a pretty good edge, its quicker and more accurate using a jig I find. Even trying to follow an existing angle, when you are shining up a new plane blade on lapping paper is not easy, the iron naturally rocks, which must surely be producing a less sharp edge, and taking longer? How do clamp your hand / arm in a completely rigid position? Answer, you can, so any angle you get is going to be by nature, inaccurate and variable, unless you use a jig.

Cheers, Mark

 

[Harbo]

Jacob being selective with words again on his continuing diatribe against mechanical aids:

The case for doing this as a matter of course is that it keeps things simple (e.g. one 2 sided stone) and becomes a completely natural unproblematic routine.
Robin Wood's blog. http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.com/2 ... s-for.html

And skipping over the fact that his mentor has 14 Stones and a large diamond plate for keeping them flat!

Rod

 

[studders]

.... I switch to the Tormek and have a session which normally lasts me a couple of months.

Brian, if your grinding sessions are lasting a couple of months you need to find a quicker way.

:lol:

 

[Jacob]

Jacob being selective with words again on his continuing diatribe against mechanical aids:

Nothing against mechanical aids. I've got a PT and the full monty!
It's more about gizmos and gadgets and giving up on simple, proven and quick, hand techniques. I wouldn't bother if I didn't think it was viable - I wouldn't advise anyone to do all their planeing by hand.

The case for doing this as a matter of course is that it keeps things simple (e.g. one 2 sided stone) and becomes a completely natural unproblematic routine.
Robin Wood's blog. http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.com/2 ... s-for.html

And skipping over the fact that his mentor has 14 Stones and a large diamond plate for keeping them flat!

Rod

That was a big set up for a lot of woodworkers. Yer man on his own would just have the few stones, just like a typical oil stone user - and no gadgets!

 

[Harbo]

I don't think so - I cannot imagine he took all this stuff to Japan for others to use? Most of the ones in Japan were big brutes.
Here's what he said:

"Here are some of my current stones.
From the top left natural stone about 12000, shapton 1500, shapton 5000, shapton 1000, shapton glass stone 16000 (yes really 16,000) spyderco fine stone, spyderco extra fine.
Bottom row, DMT extra fine, Japanese diamond stone dresser, unknown stone very like a shapton 1000, natural stone c12000, king 1000, king 4000, king 6000.

Of these stones the shaptons are far superior to the rest, the king 1000 is barely worth having, I would just as soon use emery paper stuck to a woodblock, the king 4k and 6k are reasonable stones, in fact the 6k makes a decent finish stone at not too high a price I always finished with autosol metal polish on a board after this stone. Now I follow it with the 12k natural and 16k shapton instead. The spyderco stones are OK as fine finishing stones but they do not remove metal fast and have very little feel or feedback, the knife tends to skate on the surface as if on glass where even the 16k shapton feels like it is grabbing at the metal and cutting, this allows you to feel the bevel you are trying to sharpen much better."

Reads like a complicated sharpening system to me?

 

[dunbarhamlin]

The problem I find sharpening freehand is the blade tends to rock slightly as you go back and forth [...]which must surely be producing a less sharp edge, and taking longer?

Only the edge matters - doesn't matter what has happened behind the edge, it won't result in a less sharp edge. It may require an additional stroke to do the necessary amount of work to the edge, but since so few honing strokes are required, and most probably start off undersharpening and overhoning, in practice there's no difference.

How do clamp your hand / arm in a completely rigid position? Answer, you can['t]

Answer: you shouldn't. You're looking at the taught approximation to the stance required instead of the lesson objective - maintaining the existing bevel. Try concentrating on what is happening to the edge. If trying to repeat the bevel, think about the feel of bezel on stone, not about your joints. Most folks aren't used to conciously monitoring proprioceptive feedback, which leads to overstiff wrists and hands, less control and less feedback. But coupled with pressure information from fingertips and the sound of the bezel on the stone, it very quickly becomes easy to refocus on the tool/stone interface and maintain a repeatable cutting bevel.

Look at a practiced freehander - it looks slapdash. This is because all that matters is the edge - elbows can be doing the birdy dance with little impact on the bit that matters.

 

[Jacob]

....

Look at a practiced freehander - it looks slapdash. This is because all that matters is the edge - elbows can be doing the birdy dance with little impact on the bit that matters.

You can do it with one hand, with a pint glass in the other, whilst standing on one foot. It's not difficult, as I keep saying over and over again. Any fool can do it.
You can do it in the dark entirely by feel (you feel for the wire edge).

... .....
Reads like a complicated sharpening system to me?

I agree partially. Easy sharpening system but too many stones. It takes time to pare things down to essentials. I was just drawing attention to the ease of freehand honing on display.

I thought our Japanese Tool Study Group may be interested in the vid, but it's very quiet over there. Maybe the freehand-in-lotus-position has put them all off the idea!

 

[Jacob]

.......You can do it with one hand, with a pint glass in the other, whilst standing on one foot. .......
You can do it in the dark entirely by feel (you feel for the wire edge).......

I just tried the above. One hand/leg etc perfectly easy (mug of tea in the other hand) but faster with 2 hands as you can put more force into it. In the dark not so easy as you need to eye up the angle and be able to see the ends of the stone. But feeling for the wire edge is OK - that's what I do anyway, coupled with looking for the shiny line of a blunt edge. It's always last to go from the middle so it's really important to feel the burr right across the middle or you can get an edge which will be sharper than before but could be better.

PS I forgot Steve's birdy dance, I'll try that next time.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

:lol:

 

[Alf]

...elbows can be doing the birdy dance...

And in one fell swoop, Steve puts everybody off freehand sharpening ever again... :lol:

 

[János]

Hello to all,

This has been an interesting debate. My grandfather, who was a cabinetmaker, and my godfather, who was a patternmaker, sharpened their tools freehand, on three stones: a coarse sandstone, a fine sandstone, and a Belgian honing stone, old world equivalents to F150, F400, and F800 manmade stones. For a keen edge they stropped the tools’ edges on a piece of cowhide, using rouge. They sharpened their tool blades with single bevels, the carving tools got double bevel grinds. And all this worked quite well for them. I do nearly the same: grind, sharpen and hone my blades by hand, with single bevels, but I use F1500 manmade aluminium-oxide stones for honing in place of the Belgian stone.
An old-school Japanese carpenter would do the same, and sharpened his tools on no more than three or four stones (natural sandstones, by the way), freehand.
The time and care required to sharpen and maintain a tool properly was one of the main reasons behind the old rule: Never lend your tools. :wink: And every carpenter, joiner and cabinetmaker had got his own set of basic bench tools.

Have a nice day,

János