2015 Woodturning Challenge

[henton49er]

It is time to look forward to next year and to decide whether the Challenge should continue into next year.

Some thoughts:-

There has been a reducing entry throughout 2014, starting with around 15 entrants, down to only 6, 6 and 5 in the last three months. There are a few stalwarts, but very little interest apart from these few - is it worth continuing next year?

We are clearly going to repeat some of the challenges turned in the past couple of years if we are to keep the Challenge open to all, including beginners. Anything too complex will put beginners off. What are your suggestions for Challenges for next year if you think we should continue?

Should we have two levels of entrants - beginners (those that have never won a monthly Challenge) and "experts" - those that have? Would this attract more entrants? If not, how do we attract more entrants?

Is the monthly winners plaque a good idea? Do we want something similar next year, or a change to something else?

Finally, I am having less and less time to devote to the management of the Challenge and wish to step down from the role at the end of the year - so a volunteer is needed to take it forward.

Suggestions and input needed, please.

 

[gregmcateer]

I want to start by thanking you Mike and Paul and Richard for all your work. It wouldn't be possible without this.
I love seeing what people have made and keep meaning to make stuff, but kids seem to take up most of my spare time!
If it continues I think a two tier approach may be better, but more admin!, as I for one am a bit put off when I see the quality of the usual podium occupants.
Greg

 

[woodfarmer]

I have done practically no wood turning during the spring and summer as that is the time I am very busy with the farm. Things get much quieter in the winter. Also in the beginning my ability was and probably still is not good enough.

What might be good would be to have a "this months most unusual or novel project".

 

[Grahamshed]

One of the problems with entries may be the format, Personally I like it ( but have been sidelined a couple of times by lack of time ) but having monthly points leading up to an annual winner means that anyone not entering every time, or joining later in the year, has no chance of winning so may be put off and not bother.
Maybe we could have a series of independent challenges, lets say 6, each lasting 2 months, or maybe 4 quarterly challenges.

 

[Walney Col]

One of the problems with entries may be the format

I agree. To anyone even remotely interested in entering there's only one date per year on which everyone starts on an even footing. That alone encourages a closed shop attitude rather than one that would encourage newcomers who I imagine turn up fairly regularly all year round.

Col.

 

[Melinda_dd]

I for one would love to see the challenge continue....

However I do feel guilty when I can't enter each month!!! This year has been pretty bad for me... with broken bones in the family and commissions to complete, I haven't had any time.... then I think I've let the challenge down..... and Dodges board challenge, felt bad for not finishing that too
Former years I've supported the challenge as much as possible and I thoroughly enjoy it.... gives me something to think about in an otherwise boring and tedious day!!!

Now so far, those there plaques have evaded me!! be it through lack of entering, or lack of skill!
BUT... it is top of my life's bucket list to win one... right up there with scuba dive the great barrier reef....
So yes they are a great idea in my humble opinion

 

[KimG]

I agree the format for overall winner based on points can be daunting as a miss for a month or two certainly puts you down the list a bit, naturally!

But the points system is still a very good means of grading, so rather than dispose of that why not have a system that is similar to teach month, whereby there is an end of year winner based on the points (this will certainly be a deserved win for both skill and perseverance surely?)

But alongside that you could also have a voted winner by the entrants, perhaps the basis for judgment could be the best item of the year, or some other criteria, it would at least be an opportunity for all to be in with a chance of a win based on their product rather than their ability to put in a show each month.

 

[Dalboy]

I would like to thank all those that help organise this event namely Mike and Paul and Richard also the gentleman whom made the plaques (Forgive me you name eludes me at the moment)

I agree the format for overall winner based on points can be daunting as a miss for a month or two certainly puts you down the list a bit, naturally!

Watching how the scores run I agree it can only be 1 miss and you can drop down the points system. I don't enter many competitions as quite often those that I would like to compete in are way above my standard, and I think this is something that puts the beginner off from entering. Having said that I did enter the Getwoodworking one at Ally Pally with a surprise third place in the Novice section

How to run the competition is a task not to be relished and those that have done so in the past have done an amazing job. To work out a system that encourages everyone to take part is certainly not an easy one. Yes a two tier system sounds great but will there be enough entrants to fill both in another thing.
The problem being is that at the beginning of the year there are a great number who say they will take part then like other years it just dwindles down to the few.

 

[J-G]

One way to 'even out' the problem of missing months entries would be to take the average of the points earned. That way someone who (for whatever reason) can only manage to enter 3 months would have their total score divided by 3, 7 entries gets the total score divided by 7 etc.

If the adjudicators wished to multiply that figure by 12 the scoring would be on a par with the current system so historic comparisons could be made (if it were felt appropriate).

I've only entered once and as yet have no idea if my entry was acceptable but I would appreciate the opportunity to have my work judged further - I've already started to consider what sort of bangle to make. :wink:

 

[henton49er]

Thanks for all the replies so far.

There are a couple of posts [Grahamshed and Walney Col] suggesting that to be able to challenge as the "overall winner" means that you have to enter every month from January to December. As things stand this is correct, but there is a winner's plaque for each month's winner as well - it would also be possible to get rid of the overall winner's prize, other than perhaps announcing who had scored the most points in the year, if there is general agreement that the overall winner's prize is a stopping more entries.

Personally, I think that the overall winner's prize gives those who can enter each month a bit of a "gee up" to not only keep on entering but also to keep improving their standard of turning, which after all is the main purpose of the Challenge - to turn things that you would not normally do; to make you think and turn outside your own comfort zone. It all helps you to become a better turner, hopefully.

Keep the replies and comments coming.

 

[Grahamshed]

Thanks for all the replies so far.

There are a couple of posts [Grahamshed and Walney Col] suggesting that to be able to challenge as the "overall winner" means that you have to enter every month from January to December. As things stand this is correct, but there is a winner's plaque for each month's winner as well - it would also be possible to get rid of the overall winner's prize, other than perhaps announcing who had scored the most points in the year, if there is general agreement that the overall winner's prize is a stopping more entries.

Personally, I think that the overall winner's prize gives those who can enter each month a bit of a "gee up" to not only keep on entering but also to keep improving their standard of turning, which after all is the main purpose of the Challenge - to turn things that you would not normally do; to make you think and turn outside your own comfort zone. It all helps you to become a better turner, hopefully.

Keep the replies and comments coming.

I did say I personally liked the current system, just looking for reasons why it always drops down towards the end

 

[Tazmaniandevil]

Well I think it should continue. I have had a lot of fun taking part, even when I have missed the deadlines.

I will not be entering anything, because I refuse to be dictated to by trolls or accused of making "BS excuses" when members of my family are gravely ill. That is completely uncalled for.
The spirit of the challenge has always been that it is open to anyone who wishes to take part. A voluntary competition should never be about making accusations or trying to force your baseless opinion on others. Therefore I choose not to participate.
On a good week, I get perhaps 2-4 hours in the shed, and for the past 3 weeks my shed has not even had the doors open. I choose to spend that precious time doing what pleases me - not what others decide what I should do.

Long live the challenge though, and good luck to all who sail in her.

 

[SteveF]

i look forward to seeing the turned items every month
i also look forward to the results
it would be a shame to see this ended
i have only entered once

for 2 reasons:
as a novice i feel a bit intimidated
never get around to completion

i reckon a novice section one a quarter may be fun

Steve

 

[Tazmaniandevil]

i have only entered once

for 2 reasons:
as a novice i feel a bit intimidated

Don't be. Everyone has to start somewhere. Some of my entries have been pretty ropey, but it's what the challenge is about - trying new things.

i have only entered once

for 2 reasons:
never get around to completion

Many of us have that problem. I've missed the deadline and posted the result up outside the challenge thread. Folk are generally helpful and happy to point out good bits as well as bad bits.

i reckon a novice section one a quarter may be fun

Yep. But when does one cease being a novice? Some folk may start turning and have a couple of hundred hours turning under their belt within a year, while others may have the same or less after 3 or so years.

Even if you don't enter anything, at least have a go at the challenge. It helps push you and gets you thinking about how to approach the piece.

 

[Dalboy]

for 2 reasons:
as a novice i feel a bit intimidated
never get around to completion

i reckon a novice section one a quarter may be fun

Steve

Never feel intimidated just have fun it will give you practice.

As for being a Novice I am still compared to many turners I have seen not just on this site but others as well. It is surprising how long it can take to make something sometimes but then speed is not everything.

But then I just have fun

 

[Wybrook]

Firstly thanks to the organisers, it's not a fun job and I'm sure many of us take you for granted at times.

As for my thoughts, I'd love to see the challenge continue as it gives me a reason to try something different each month and while some of my attempts may leave a lot to be desired I still enter them as :

a) Even a single point is valuable !;
b) I'm sure it's depressing to the organisers when only a very few people enter, so having made (or attempted to make) something I might as well let them see I'm interested;
c) Chances are I'll never meet any of you in person, so what's there to be embarrassed about

Ways it could change :

1) I agree about the 'miss a month and you're out of the running' comments, so some ideas:
a) take each entrant's 9 best scores - allows for some months to be missed, or for the three 'worst' scores to be discarded;
b) have extra points for the last two or three months - maybe 1.25x in October, 1.5x in November and 2x in December;
c) I'm not so keen on the 'average' score as someone who does well in the first few months may decide not to enter again for fear of reducing their average.

2) Split competitions. Again some thoughts :
a) Run an experts (i.e. previous winners) comp one month and a 'novices' (the rest of us) the other months - not ideal as it reduces the number of comps by half.
b) Have separate scoring for the 'experts' and the 'novices' - better as helps the novices compete on a more even playing field, but could be a nightmare to keep track of !
c) Stay as we are, but have a 'highest scoring novice' prize at the end of the year as well as the overall winner - feels like a reasonable compromise to me.

3) Timing - I don't know about others, but I often struggle to fit enough lathe time in in the four weeks a challenge is running. Could each competition run for eight weeks but have two running simultaneously - e.g. the competition that ends on 31st January is 'launched' on 6th December and the one that ends on 28th Feb is launched on 3rd Jan ? Also, could we have all competitions ending on a Sunday evening, giving us a final weekend to get something done ?

Hope this helps the debate.

 

[Paul Hannaby]

How about a challenge that has a slightly easier task for novices and an added element for those with a little more experience? For example a basic bowl for all entrants with the addition of feet for those with more experience.

Separating the challenge into separate competitions for novices and experts might further dilute the limited numbers of entries some months.

Another suggestion - either instead of or as well as the overall year's winner, how about the best single entry voted for by the forum members?

 

[Grahamshed]

Firstly I have to say that I think Wybrook's post is hilarious. Having stated that he will never meet any of us so what is there to be embarrassed about....... his post is followed by one from one of the judges living in the same place.

However, what he says makes good sense and I find myself agreeing with all of it. especially using the nine best scores, It would keep the competition 'open' for much longer.
The extended deadlines could work as well.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I've had more kiddie sick problems so apologies for chiming in late on this:

1. I echo the thanks to the organisers, judges and plaque provider.....extremely generous of you all to give up your precious free time for the benefit of all.

2. I also wholeheartedly agree it should continue because despite dwindling participation, it is still something that personally I really look forward to and know many others feel the same. Frankly, even if on any given month only 3 entries turn up, I for one want to see them. On an aside, after the call to arms, last month I did turn a pair of candelsticks but son hospital time thwarted my attempts to get them published. So, though horribly late, I will upload them at some point. But the point is clear, people, myself included wish to participate but cant always do so due to life circumstances.

3. At my turning club we run a 3 tier system for the competiton; beginner, intermediate and advanced. I appreciate that's overkill here but I definitely think and have for some time that a beginner continually being trounced by a stunning piece buffed to oblivion so its "glinting" in the setting sun is not a happy scene! All that eventually does is demotivate the learner because they cant compete. I recall some learning theory from many training courses ago which went along the lines of: learning requires a journey outside your comfort zone and into your learning zone. If well coached, you should not reach your panic zone. I think what we are seeing is not so much learners entering their panic zone but more their "being embarrassed in public" zone! I believe it beyond question that the broad range of differing standards on show are crying out to have the playing field levelled. We're asking Rotherham United to play Barcelona (in public and televised) and then wonder why Rotherham stop at Harry Ramsden's on the way to the game and never leave!!

4. Many of the measures suggested to remedy that situation are pretty sensible it seems to me but above all, in my view, novices should be competing with novices.
5. Lastly I would certainly not want this to have the opposite effect and discourage the big guns because their output is a large part of the inspiration, that's the goal we want to get to so its only about the scoring. I don't know what the solution is but its along the lines of a golf handicap system. That is universally accepted as a reasonable way to pit experienced vs non experienced in a way in which the playing field has been levelled.

But don't stop it, its far too valuable to take dwindling participation as the only measure of its worth.

 

[henton49er]

3) Timing - I don't know about others, but I often struggle to fit enough lathe time in in the four weeks a challenge is running. Could each competition run for eight weeks but have two running simultaneously - e.g. the competition that ends on 31st January is 'launched' on 6th December and the one that ends on 28th Feb is launched on 3rd Jan ? Also, could we have all competitions ending on a Sunday evening, giving us a final weekend to get something done ?

As this year's organiser, I would just say that it is enough trouble running one competition without having two going simultaneously - it would "do my head in" trying to keep all the stuff separate - but someone more organised than me might be able to!!

Otherwise, IMO some good suggestions from Wybrook.