Some People!

[Cheeseburger]

My local community centre / library has just undergone a minor refurbishment, a spot of redecoration and a little modernising. They gave it a coat of paint, moved some of the library shelves about in an attempt to make the place more user friendly and added a few new sections which, whilst covered before, were maybe lost amongst the fuller, more commonly used sections.
Most of the regulars and those like myself that only pop in from time to time, grateful for the time and effort taken by the owners, had a wander about and a poke here and there and found what we were looking for. There were of course those who weren't very good with change but they politely asked where things were and the other patrons and staff were more than happy to show them where they now were. Others mentioned they couldn't read in the newly painted library and that they missed some of the previous facilities and the management took on their observations and redecorated some areas and reintroduced some of the old facilities.
However, some people!
Some people started shouting about how dare the owners move things about and paint the walls without asking them first. Some pig headed patrons decided they'd rather spite themselves and go off to a different library (no loss there!) and some just continue to balk and shout about how much better it was in their day before these Johnny come Lately's decided to move things about .
If you find yourself in the latter category , stop being such an ingrate and have some respect for not only the owners and management but your fellow patrons and passers by. The place is provided free of charge, maintained on a daily basis and the management try and keep the place friendly and sociable, put up with obnoxious comments and snide remarks without retort and all you can do whinge about piddly little details that you don't like. Grow up, stop acting like a 5 year old that doesn't get their own way and if something bothers you that much just ask politely if it could possibly be changed, you know, like an adult.
I for one appreciate all the time and effort that goes into a place like my library and would like to thank all those involved in its running. If you happen to read this please keep up the good work.

 

[Brandlin]

I cant help thinking there is an analogy here between your library and some other place ...

 

[Rorschach]

Missed the analogy, I blame the sherry.

 

[Lons]

I cant help thinking there is an analogy here between your library and some other place ...

Never ! :lol: :lol:

 

[Racers]

The new head of our library wanted to put the books in alphabetical order :shock:

Pete

 

[Ttrees]

I think I may have visited that libary...
Unfortunatly they hid all the books upstairs, and made no attempt to make reference to them in the new section.
Whats more is the locals wrote all the books!
The least they could do was to move the old place to the new place, and make the old titled section more specific
and not trying to stuff random unrelated things into it

They could even make a dated headline to clear things up a bit in the new section

 

[JWLeaper]

Cheeseburger is absolutely correct but since the new paint job in the library I use I find myself popping in to browse less often, possibly a little as once a day now. My loss I am sure but over the years I’ve learnt a little about the phenomenon 'resistance to change' having initiated some changes myself and copped flack for it and I am really too old to jump on the outrage bus each time one comes along.

 

[Yorkshire Sam]

I too am a wrinkly and (hate/resistant to change) ... didnt like it at first but now soon got used to it and now am just as at home with it. As my wife often tells me if it was left to me things would never change ( for better or worse ) but at least I am old and daft enough to know that sometime others know better ! I say well done to all involved.

 

[lurker]

The new head of our library wanted to put the books in alphabetical order :shock:

Pete

Blimey!
If that happened in a library I go to, the "S" section would be ginormous.

 

[Racers]

And if you where doing photography Ansel Adams would be miles away from John Muir Wood.

Pete

 

[Tasky]

Some people started shouting about how dare the owners move things about and paint the walls without asking them first. Some pig headed patrons decided they'd rather spite themselves and go off to a different library (no loss there!) and some just continue to balk and shout about how much better it was in their day before these Johnny come Lately's decided to move things about .

Ah-hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously?
It's a flippin' library, for goodness' sake!!!!
If it's public, then it's up to the government. If it's not, then it's up to the owners. Either way, stuff needs moving around to make room for the new stuff.

Anyone who can't find something in a library needs to get a book on the Dewey System, or have an adult accompany them!!

 

[Brandlin]

Psst Tasky.... I think you missed the subtle analogy...

... either that or its an ironic doubt bluff ...

 

[Tasky]

Psst Tasky.... I think you missed the subtle analogy...
... either that or its an ironic doubt bluff ...

No, I got it.
You even explained it in the second post.

I'm just stunned that it actually happened.... I'm assuming it did really happen and isn't just a highly entertaining allegorical narrative?

 

[rafezetter]

I'm sure we all understand the analogy, so I'm just going to be plain. Charley being the owner, he does retain the right to change stuff as he pleases, and I also understand he had little choice because the previous version wasn't going to be supported anymore.

However I think what got a lot of peoples backs up, was the overnight transition, without warning or any "I'm doing a revamp what changes do you think might be good / what features are you certain must be kept?" And I think the forum members have earned at least that, because while Charley is the owner, he contributes nothing to the content**, without which the site wouldn't exist at all.

To go back to your analogy, "no books, no library".

Another reason for peoples ire is while the new format may have been designed with phones in mind, because the figures probably show a higher traffic rate for phones than home computers, the reality is different; because most of the "hits" are down to people searching for certain things and getting this website as one of the results; whereas most of the actual regular USERS and contributors do so on a home PC - and the reason why the "phone friendly / home PC not as friendly as the previous iteration" annoyed people.

And even small changes like "not being able to go straight to the latest post in a thread anymore, but being forced to go to page 1 - then click to the last page, then scroll down to find the last post" can really get some peoples backs up.

I also understand Charley also provides the service to us free, but I think no-one here would begrudge fees had they been asked for, and that too is a choice only Charley can make.

** I didn't even know he WAS the owner until the changes happened.

@ Cheeseburger - umm I also feel that maybe your little song and dance would feel a little less insulting had you been a member for longer than a month and made just 6 posts. When making observations about a group of individuals, context is everything.

 

[Brandlin]

Another reason for peoples ire is while the new format may have been designed with phones in mind, because the figures probably show a higher traffic rate for phones than home computers, the reality is different; because most of the "hits" are down to people searching for certain things and getting this website as one of the results; whereas most of the actual regular USERS and contributors do so on a home PC - and the reason why the "phone friendly / home PC not as friendly as the previous iteration" annoyed people.

What evidence do you have for ANY of that. I dont believe anyone has demonstrated usage figures. I think the only comment I have seen was CHJ suggesting that the numbers are about equal. Also it was clearly designed to be used on a range of platforms. And your claim that on a PC it's less friendly than the old version is your OPINION, it certainly isn't mine. The old layout was cluttered, cramped and impenetrable, but thats MY OPINION - I'm not claiming to represent anyone else.

In order to speak for all these "people", you really should have some facts. Just because SOME people have had issues (many now resolved) and aesthetically SOME people dislike it and are loud about it, does not mean they are right!

"not being able to go straight to the latest post in a thread anymore, but being forced to go to page 1 - then click to the last page, then scroll down to find the last post" can really get some peoples backs up.

Except of course that you CAN easily go to the first post you haven't read yet. Not the same perhaps, but I might argue much more actually useful.

I also understand Charley also provides the service to us free, but I think no-one here would begrudge fees had they been asked for, and that too is a choice only Charley can make.

Again you are talking for other people. What evidence do you have? sure a few people have said so. But thats a tiny fraction of those who haven't expressed a view. I wouldn't pay and i think there are likely to be a lot of people who wouldn't. I'd just go back to reading and not contributing.

@ Cheeseburger - umm I also feel that maybe your little song and dance would feel a little less insulting had you been a member for longer than a month and made just 6 posts. When making observations about a group of individuals, context is everything.

So basically if you were here first your view is worth more? And yet you wonder why some newcomers might be put off? The behaviour of SOME people regarding these changes has been akin to watching spoilt children throw tantrums in kindergarten. I thought the analogy pretty good and a light hearted way of pointing out the absurdity to some people.

Yes, communication about changes could have been better. But from what I've seen all that would have happened is charley would have been bogged down in trying to deal with every tiny issue being debated ad nauseum by people (many by their own admission) with little to no expertise in managing a website querying and challenging every tiny thing. He made a choice to get on and do something and keep the site running when the other option was to retire it on the old software. I'm sure he has learned something about his audience through all this.

Frankly, I think the guy deserves a ******* medal for putting up with the amount of dung and vitriol that has been thrown his way over all this, from tantrums and storming out to continued low grade patronising and undermining comments.

Sadly I worry that he may conclude it isn't worth the hassle.

 

[MikeG.]

.......Except of course that you CAN easily go to the first post you haven't read yet. Not the same perhaps, but I might argue much more actually useful........

It can be more useful, certainly. But what if you want to go to the last post and you've already read it once? This happens with me a lot. The only option as far as I can tell is to go to the top of the page and scroll down. Not the end of the world, but enough to register a negative thought each time.

 

[AES]

@Brandlin,

I agree that Charley and co have indeed reacted to many ideas and complaints, but at least one he hasn't reacted to (tongue in cheek) - "I like your post (generally) Brandlin, but I don't like Likes so I haven't pressed Like"!!

OK, my tongue IS in cheek, and I appreciate that Charley (and the Mods too) have other lives - other responsibilities even. But some what I believe to be "sensible" suggestions have been made by several people, myself included, and there has been nil response so far. Examples?

1. The "Likes/Dislikes" thing;

2. The idea of at least some of the existing "how to do it" stickies going into one of the top drop down menus on the very 1st Board Index page (something like "How To Do its").

As I say, I DO appreciate everyone involved has other things to think about, but at least some sort of acknowledgement along the lines of "Thanks for the suggestion, we'll look into the full implications of doing that and get back to you - it may take a while", would have been all that's needed as a first step.

Similarly, the abrupt "ON/OFF" change to the whole Forum "look" could have been better handled IMO.

Again an example like "the present software is no longer supported so we're going to do some changes" (which Charley DID say, but only afterwards), plus "surely not everyone will be pleased but bear with us/me" would I feel gone at least some way to forestall some of the more extreme reactions to those "overnight ON/OFF" changes.

I DO agree that some reactions have indeed been (im)personally offensive, and if I had been on the receiving end of some I would have taken offence. That no one "in authority" has done so (at least not publicly on the Forum) deserves full marks for being tough-skinned and understanding Gentlemen - perhaps more than can be said for some of the posters!

BUT, OTOH Brandlin, as said, while I do agree with your sentiments at least in part, one could at least also consider that if people got so emotional and angry about the changes, that shows that they DO care about and value this Forum, otherwise why would they bother to react at all?

Finally do please remember that although I have no figures to support my "guesstimate", I do think it highly likely that a large number of members here - perhaps even a majority - were not brought up in the internet/PC age, and so genuinely do find changes in "software" difficult to manage (yup, just like me). IMO that's not only because many people are naturally resistant to change but because, as Charley has said himself, the last change to this Forum was 6 years ago (before I joined). So if suddenly and without warning, the buttons they were used to pressing for the last 6 years have stopped working like they used to, and if everything suddenly looks completely different, then it's quite natural that if they value the Forum at all, they just get angry about the changes and in some cases, just blast off and post without thinking it through.

In short then, IMO there are some "faults" on both sides of the table, but the important point for me is will "the authorities" at least perhaps consider responding a little more pro-actively please? For example as per the 2 examples I give above, or for another example, the sudden change of Forum "Sections" into "Sub Sections" without any prior warning that I saw, but just "find it out for yourselves". That kind of action is just bound to upset people, and as said, if they do care they're going to (over?) react.

Once again with respect to Charley and all the Mods (and in this case, to you too Brandlin).

AES

 

[Brandlin]

.......Except of course that you CAN easily go to the first post you haven't read yet. Not the same perhaps, but I might argue much more actually useful........

It can be more useful, certainly. But what if you want to go to the last post and you've already read it once? This happens with me a lot. The only option as far as I can tell is to go to the top of the page and scroll down. Not the end of the world, but enough to register a negative thought each time.

But if there isn't a new post, then the red star icon to Go To A New Post, wont show. So you know there isn't anything new to look at, so you'll never need to scroll to the last post.

 

[MikeG.]

.......Except of course that you CAN easily go to the first post you haven't read yet. Not the same perhaps, but I might argue much more actually useful........

It can be more useful, certainly. But what if you want to go to the last post and you've already read it once? This happens with me a lot. The only option as far as I can tell is to go to the top of the page and scroll down. Not the end of the world, but enough to register a negative thought each time.

But if there isn't a new post, then the red star icon to Go To A New Post, wont show. So you know there isn't anything new to look at, so you'll never need to scroll to the last post.

I don't want to labour the point, (it isn't anything more than a minor nuisance), but this is simply wrong. I regularly have need of returning to the last post, even if it hasn't been added to or changed. I often give advice on building matters, and these are sometimes somewhat complex in the issues they raise. The poster to whom I am responding isn't the only person who reads my advice, and I have to be aware that others might read it and incorrectly assign that advice to their own situation. This means that I might give an answer after some thought, then half an hour later something else occurs to me and I want to revisit it. The converse applies as well, in that I might read a question that turns out to have a complexity about it that I don't have time to deal with immediately. I come back to it later, maybe having checked up on some facts, or maybe just having composed my thoughts, and of course, it means going to the last post without a single-button means of getting there.

 

[rafezetter]

I don't want to labour the point, (it isn't anything more than a minor nuisance), but this is simply wrong. I regularly have need of returning to the last post, even if it hasn't been added to or changed. I often give advice on building matters, and these are sometimes somewhat complex in the issues they raise. The poster to whom I am responding isn't the only person who reads my advice, and I have to be aware that others might read it and incorrectly assign that advice to their own situation. This means that I might give an answer after some thought, then half an hour later something else occurs to me and I want to revisit it. The converse applies as well, in that I might read a question that turns out to have a complexity about it that I don't have time to deal with immediately. I come back to it later, maybe having checked up on some facts, or maybe just having composed my thoughts, and of course, it means going to the last post without a single-button means of getting there.

This ^^

Brandlin you have been quick to condemn answers based on a narrow and personal opinion, and just because you cannot always see the reasoning, you can be assured that there is one, whether you may agree with it or not.

As AES said, most people don't really get heated about a topic or situation they don't care about, not even me, and I've got more time on my hands than most.

Only a loon, or a troll, will post argumentative comments and reactions to a situation "for teh lulz" as kids would say. Thankfully we don't have any trolls here, some that are close, granted, but no actual trolls.

I'd also like to point out that you also seem quite quick to be dismissive of posters who would happily contribute financially to this incredible resource of expertise and knowledge - where you can get active feedback from masters at their craft, and highlight that you have made it clear that you would not pay to access this resource.

Does that mean I value it more and you less? Who knows.

What I can say is that there are parts and members of this forum that have provided enough advice to enable myself and many other people, to get paid work.

As for your reply to my comment about Cheeseburger not being here very long, and how you think I'm being dismissive because I've been here longer, and thus supposedly beleiving my viewpoint is more valid - I'm guessing you didn't fully internalise the part where I said "when judging a group of individuals, context is everything" - new people like Cheeseburger simply cannot appreciate how invested some of the forum members are, and how long they have been here, and how much of thier own personal time (and occasionally items) they have given, FREELY, to help people they have never met, nor ever will in most cases.

A new member joins and starts throwing accustions and likening some members to five years olds based on EXTREMELY LIMITED experience of some of those posters is pretty insulting.

As an example, a member here; Jacob, gets a lot of stick for a lot of comments, but the fact remains his wealth of knowledge - regardless of how you feel about it - is undeniable, and the amount of times he's been helpful is also well known; so even his detractors treat him with begruding respect. (Mostly).

But Cheeseburger has no clue of any of that or the more subtle nuances only visible through observation and time, unless he's been a lurker for many years, and while that's certainly possible he doesn't seem to be the shy and retiring type based on the fact his 6th post was a rant against many established members whom he knows basically nothing about.