Which Honing Paste do YOU Use?

[memzey]

So is there any advantage for woodworkers in using green compound as opposed to autosol?

 

[D_W]

So is there any advantage for woodworkers in using green compound as opposed to autosol?

For any practical purpose? No. You're better off learning to manage the wire edge with bare leather, as most of the difference felt between the two is due to the fact that a wire edge will still hold a little bit at autosol grits, but not at chrome oxide submicron grits.

The autosol will be *miles* faster and less finicky (and cheaper).

if you make a contest to find the thinnest easiest feeling paring shaving on the end of the softest piece of pine that you have, you might be able to tell a difference between the two. We don't often actually perform any tasks that way, though. Paring to a scribed line tends to be more dependent on bevel angle, and the severing part of the cut is less than the wedging, so that fiddle faddle sharpness gain is lost.

(the difference is useful if you have a straight razor and no linen, though. So, ...there's something where it's useful :ho2 )

 

[ED65]

So is there any advantage for woodworkers in using green compound as opposed to autosol?

I suspect the answer to this question is more complex than we'd like.

The problem is that today many green compounds, which users naturally suppose are made from chromium oxide (and may be marketed as exactly that), are not only that any more but are partly aluminium oxide, with added green dye to adjust the colour. And based on this it is of course entirely possible that the abrasive component of some green buffing compounds or honing sticks is entirely alox.

This naturally muddies the waters a bit when people are trying to compare like for like or to contrast green compounds against a polish known to be made using alox.

 

[D_W]

I'm going to stick my neck out and say that few people have tried more sharpening materials than I have. I may back this up with metallurgical microscope pictures later, because as Charlie jokes about all of these various things, I actually have them (the microfine stick that's 70% aluminum oxide, and better for woodworking because of it - chrome ox by itself is very slow, and should be reserved for razors), as follows:
* diamonds down to 0.1 microns
* oxides down to 0.09 microns
* natural stones from (not sold from, but quarried from):
- the united states
- canada
- england
- crete
- japan
- germany
- france/belgium

The problem that people have with the green stick from Lee Valley and others (formax microfine) is that they do not understand that it is a wax stick for buffers. Albeit, it's a softer one, it's still a wax stick for buffers. It has quite a bit of aluminum oxide in it, but the general effect of it is that it will yield a finer and sharper edge than nearly all synthetic stones, with the possible exception of the 0.5 micron stones like the gokumyo and the shapton 30k. When you use it, you need only a little bit, and since it is in wax, it is best to add a few drops of mineral oil with the wax - otherwise you are just suspending your iron on wax, and potentially bending the edge as you go over it rather than abrading it. This is true for practically all wax crayons - the addition of a little bit of oil will negate the wax and the action will be much better.

It can have foreign particles up to 6 microns in it according to the MSDS - aluminum oxide. If you look closely at polished areas, you can see spider webbing here or there because the remainder of the polish is so bright. None of these particles will ever show on work, and I have my doubts that anyone could tell the difference in a blind test between an edge prepared by the formax crayon and chromium oxide powder (of the graded type like hand american used to carry). What you can tell is that the graded powder is slower, which doesn't serve us well.

For quite a while, the shaving forums used the formax bar and with good effect, nobody was unhappy with their work - especially once they mastered the art of stropping without rounding a razor edge. Then, one day, someone (probably noticing a cosmetic niggle here or there) took it upon themselves to review the MSDS, and then they either questioned formax or LV and threw the "6 microns!!" number out there, and all of the sudden everyone who had really liked the crayon on their strops as a substitute for a real linen - all of those folks started describing problems. Of course, the problem was in their heads.

So back to the case here, somewhere around the 3 micron mark, you stop being able to feel or see any difference, and polishes and stones at that mark are still pretty fast cutting. That's very useful. Polishes below that level are not so fast cutting. What I believe they do (they do make the edge slightly more uniform) is help inexperienced sharpeners get rid of the wire edge that may still exist with 5 and 3 micron pastes and powders, etc. But at a cost of time. oiled clean bare leather does exactly the same thing. Remove the wire edge.

Having bought all of those diamonds and oxides, when I finally have a reason to use them, I'm almost giddy. If I sell a razor on etsy and someone says "make it as sharp as you possibly can, a razor is never too sharp for me", I'll work their razor through .09 micron iron oxide. That level of sharpness is enough that it will cut the back side of a pore off when shaving, rather than cutting the hair and slipping over the pore. It's painful - true razorburn. Other than that, I'd never use it for myself.

The diamond powders...well, I finally found a use for them this year. I used them to polish a few sapphire watch faces.

For woodworking, this stuff should be set aside. Something relatively quick and then removal of the wire edge is far more useful.

 

[Trafalgar]

Wax sticks are indeed for power buffers where the wax melts during the process exposing the actual polishing materials to the metal being polished. If using these sticks cold, on leather or something else, you're fighting through the wax. So, skip the wax sticks and just buy AlOx powder -- the stuff that does the actual work. You can't use the straight powders on buffing wheels as they would obviously just spin it up into the air. Hence, the wax vehicle for power buffing. Don't need it for hand stropping!

 

[D_W]

Cheap is the only reason for those sticks.

The oxides that I have are in powders, but the retailers don't sell them (not woodworking retailers, in general).

I agree with you about buying powders. If you can find them, buy them instead - you can put them in anything you want (an oil or oil and beeswax mix), or sprinkle them like a garnish without anything.

The price of the pre-made really small oxides is terrible ($20 for a 50 gram container that's probably mostly paste/oil) whereas hand used to sell chrome ox *powder* for $9 per 125 grams. Kremer still sells the pigment very inexpensively, but not graded for size (I doubt an artist cares, and am surprised we know the size of the iron oxide).

Aluminum oxide of a couple of microns makes a lot more sense than the super micro pastes, etc, anyway, and I don't know what autosol costs in the UK, but it's $7 a tube here or $33 for the large can.

I'm all for the sharpening experimenting, but nobody will be reaching for a 6 step process that ends at a quarter micron once they're sweating and their mind is on staying in motion.

 

[Trafalgar]

https://www.amazon.com/Wood-Good-WD402- ... B003NE5BFO

An ounce has lasted me five years (maybe longer, can't remember) and running. All it takes is the barest pinch. I have no idea how fine it is, but it puts a mirror shine on tool steel and polishes away the burr in seconds. Good enough for me. Otherwise, there are plenty of compounds and powders available through optics and microscopy suppliers, one of which I linked to earlier in this thread.

 

[D_W]

From the reviews.

"A little powder has gone a long way. I wish it wasn't made with aluminium, but overall I think it is a good product especially for the price."

Jeez. I guess they're concerned they'll get Alzheimers from it.

"Great compound for helping my husband keep his tool sharp."

Jeez.

 

[Trafalgar]

For the high brow crowd there are the optical compounds, most of the cost of which goes into the grading I assume. Can't afford to have any outliers on a lens that would cost thousands to replace if scratched.

 

[bugbear]

So is there any advantage for woodworkers in using green compound as opposed to autosol?

I suspect the answer to this question is more complex than we'd like.

The problem is that today many green compounds, which users naturally suppose are made from chromium oxide (and may be marketed as exactly that), are not only that any more but are partly aluminium oxide, with added green dye to adjust the colour. And based on this it is of course entirely possible that the abrasive component of some green buffing compounds or honing sticks is entirely alox.

I suspect (given the nature of Chrome Oxide and Rouge) that over time users became habituated to green being "fairly fine" and red being "very fine", and that makers of later dressings merely followed the convention.

I picked up an old set of artist grade oil pastel sticks years ago at a car boot sale. Since the sticks always break up, the set was dirty and messy, and sold for 50p. I suspect what was left of the green stick will serve my stropping needs for the rest of my life.

BugBear

 

[D_W]

Side comment from the above, I'd be curious to know how many of the green sticks don't actually have chrome ox in them. Not because you can't cut corners, but because it takes so little to tint something green given that it is a pigment. You can find out just how good of a pigment it is by dropping powder on the floor and noticing how many wipes of a rag it takes to get the last bit of pigment out of every pore (as it streaks away from the pore with each wipe).

I have a couple of different sticks - two microfine (I nearly used the first one to extinction years ago) and a stick that I got in a pack of 3 at sears (red, white, green...i'm sure you've all seen them, and I'm sure the chinese importers like HF have something similar). That three pack was $1.99. Doesn't instill confidence. I'm sure it's not that closely graded, and the wax sticks are hard, but it actually works fine.

The formax most certainly has chrome ox in it, though, and razor suppliers do make wax sticks that are only chrome ox, but you get the double treat of:
* paying a bunch for a level of fineness that makes no sense with tools
* finding out how slow chrome ox is by itself

When you do as stewie mentioned above, it's just a strop supplement. If you do it too much, it rounds your edge, and the sharpness is very transient. It's almost obnoxious how fast it goes away.

Mel Fulks, a pro on another forum once said to me "the only reason we need anything better than a king 1200 is because the quality of steel has gone down". that would be an interesting debate, because I just had a similar debate with an engineer on another forum who suggested my method of using oilstones is just clinging to antiquity.

You can ask Charlie Stanford if I started as keeper of the Tage Frid antiquities (or any other). I went balls to the wall and bought and tried everything. Oilstones are just more practical. Plainer steel is just more practical. I get where Mel is coming from now, he was just doing work and not guessing about whether or not something could be sharper, shinier, whatever.

I do think most beginners don't have a clue about the wire edge, and how it continues to exist to the finish stones, and that's probably what they should manage rather than chasing finer stones and pastes. Autosol is probably the point where you get no further benefit. Some of us have wasted our time with this stuff, but another engineer friend of mine *had* to get the shapton glasstone 30k. 5mms of abrasive for $300+. He had the 16k, I had the ($70) shapton cream at the time and we planed wood with all three. This is separate from the debate about finish after planing, we couldn't tell the difference in shine on the surface *before* finishing. Nor could we honestly tell any difference in the resistance from the plane. But it took longer to do all of those steps.

Clean leather. that's the next step. If it's not clean, scrape it off and oil it. Smooth side up so that you can ensure that you can see what clean is.

One more aside for Charlie - having bought all of this stuff, but none in years, i thought it would be interesting to check a local supplier here who caters to lapidary customers (commercial, not hobbyists). they do have .05 micron alumina, also (it must be standard in some process) - I think it's about a grand a gallon. I can't imagine how long that would last. Ounces are only slightly cheaper than various retail site, and they have 12 ounce containers if an ounce isn't enough (but they do get expensive if the particles are small).

Their discussion of how sparingly the particles should be used matches charlie's. They suggest charging a lap, then using the lap until it quits cutting. Any more abrasive than that wastes abrasive and chances rolling, which leads to less consistent results.

(or you can just use a simple stone and strop the edge off with clean leather...that's a lot easier).

 

[ED65]

I do think most beginners don't have a clue about the wire edge, and how it continues to exist to the finish stones, and that's probably what they should manage rather than chasing finer stones and pastes.

I can attest to that personally and I've read years of posts from others – not all beginners by any means! – that show they're not that clued in on it too. As you know, people get hung up on materials being the solution and forget (or deny, or don't know) that it's mostly about technique.

Some of us have wasted our time with this stuff, but another engineer friend of mine *had* to get the shapton glasstone 30k. 5mms of abrasive for $300+. He had the 16k, I had the ($70) shapton cream at the time and we planed wood with all three. This is separate from the debate about finish after planing, we couldn't tell the difference in shine on the surface *before* finishing. Nor could we honestly tell any difference in the resistance from the plane. But it took longer to do all of those steps.

That confirms everything balanced that I've read about the stupidly-high grits and their benefit. Of course this isn't what you hear from the guys who have fallen deep into a confirmation-bias trance, which might have an aspect of the audiophile delusion.