Will smart meters be used for the rolling blackouts?

[Sideways]

The key argument for smart meters in the UK was to enable time based tarriffs that are much more sophisticated than the old cheap off peak electicity measured by installing a second "economy seven" or "white meter" containing a time clock.
To do that you need a more intelligent meter that can record changing consumption throughout the day.
Why do it at all ? To change people's pattern of use and even out load on the grid so that the country as a whole doesn't need as much generating capacity as it would without this levelling out.

The originators of the scheme estimated very big savings from the scheme but the development and rollout of the smart meters has been a car crash. Very badly implemented by the energy companies. A huge part of the potential saving has been wasted.

That said, if you want smart tarriffs like cheap overnight electricity for charging a car, a smart meter is needed to count your off peak use separately from your normal or peak time use.

 

[D_W]

The obnoxious thing here also about smart meters is that with the old analog meter, I could see the instantaneous consumption. So when I have two A/C units and it's hard to tell which is pulling more current, I can literally just turn one on and not the other, watch the meter disc, count and then do the other.

It was surprising how much different certain poorly labeled appliances were. My wife is absolutely dismissive about any manipulating I suggest because of this. I could badger her with the disc rotating - she could see it. It would half work. Now all I can tell her is kilowatts.

one of the other things they touted was how easy it was to tamper with the old meters.

I my service upgraded about 10 years ago when having a room redone. It didn't need to be redone, but I thought at the time I might end up using more and bigger power tools, so I had it done - electrician was already on site to wire the room.

he clipped the tab off of the meter and never put it back on. The tab proved that you weren't tampering with the meter.

EONS later when the smart meter guy came to install it, I was concerned that the power company may give me grief about it. The guy said "why isn't the tab on your meter". I said "6 or 8 years ago, I had the back room redone and the electrician must've not put it back on". He shrugged his shoulders and "good enough". Whether they did a review of my consumption patterns after that, i don't know.

There was a big stink about the meters here because people thought they'd use the meters to determine what was being consumed when (data spying) and what devices. The power company made a big (untruthful) PR campaign about how there was no plan to do this, so on and so forth.

What do I receive now?

Emails that say "we have noticed that you have unusual consumption patterns" (house is brick, so it lags on A/C and my wife often does laundry in the evenings. the emails literally state that the meters think that we may be running the A/C too late and that the consumption suggests that the dryer is often used in the evening".

Do I care about that? No. I just don't like that they feel like they should lie about it, and that as long as there's a gap, they know people won't care that they did. We're all too dumb as a group to start holding peoples' feet to the fire when they lie intentionally. If it doesn't happen one right after the other (lie, then proof in a very short time), people give up on it.

I fall into the category of literally nothing illegal or questionable at all ever happens in the house, so I don't care. But just because you don't do anything rotten doesn't mean you won't be accused of it with the associated burden of having to prove it.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

... he clipped the tab off of the meter and never put it back on. The tab proved that you weren't tampering with the meter.

EONS later when the smart meter guy came to install it, I was concerned that the power company may give me grief about it. The guy said "why isn't the tab on your meter". I said "6 or 8 years ago, I had the back room redone and the electrician must've not put it back on". He shrugged his shoulders and "good enough".

Around here the electricity network sparkies have their own mark for private jobs so if one of their mates looks at the meter in the future and the official seal is missing they know one of their own people was last there.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

The key argument for smart meters in the UK was to enable time based tarriffs that are much more sophisticated than the old cheap off peak electicity measured by installing a second "economy seven" or "white meter" containing a time clock.

Ironically the chap turned up to replace my meter turned up with a smart meter I didn't want. When he realised I was on economy7 he said oh, I can't fit it anyway, you'll have to have a standard meter. They don't work with economy7. This was five or six years ago.

 

[D_W]

Around here the electricity network sparkies have their own mark for private jobs so if one of their mates looks at the meter in the future and the official seal is missing they know one of their own people was last there.

The guy installing the meter at my house was probably a subcontractor. On jobs like that , the subcontractor is usually paid only to do the job and nothing else and they often don't care much if reporting that isn't in their agreement. Needless to say, my bills would've showed no change in consumption before or after.

Gas company replaced gas lines on my street this year - all subcontractors. I guess it's far cheaper. There's a requirement that certain items are completed by the gas company, so while they're happening, one single guy from the gas company sat in a truck in a parking lot at the end of the street and then drove away.

The subcontractor got paid for the job and based on the number of faulty street to house lines replaced. My line was OK (pressure test fine), but didn't show up in whatever system they use to detect/locate the lines, so they replaced the entire line, anyway. A pleasant surprise given all of the scare letters sent by different utilities urging people to buy "line insurance". which is practically an elder abuse scam.

 

[Scruples]

We were categorically lied to. We haven't enough generating capacity thanks to several decades of government incompetence.

Smart merters can only be used to control your supply with your permission, at present. I doubt that will change any time soon.
I don't remember being lied to, but then I don't suffer from prarnoia either.

 

[Scruples]

The guy installing the meter at my house was probably a subcontractor. On jobs like that , the subcontractor is usually paid only to do the job and nothing else and they often don't care much if reporting that isn't in their agreement. Needless to say, my bills would've showed no change in consumption before or after.

Gas company replaced gas lines on my street this year - all subcontractors. I guess it's far cheaper. There's a requirement that certain items are completed by the gas company, so while they're happening, one single guy from the gas company sat in a truck in a parking lot at the end of the street and then drove away.

The subcontractor got paid for the job and based on the number of faulty street to house lines replaced. My line was OK (pressure test fine), but didn't show up in whatever system they use to detect/locate the lines, so they replaced the entire line, anyway. A pleasant surprise given all of the scare letters sent by different utilities urging people to buy "line insurance". which is practically an elder abuse scam.

That was always the case with local electricity boards too. However, these new seals are thinner and there is little room for any identifying marks. When I changed my consumer unit I removed the cut-out, main fuse, by breaking and disposing of the seal. Nobody took any notice but they did fit a 100A isolating switch before the meter. There are, potentially, more people with access to your menter, hence the aditional protection.

 

[XTiffy]

Just because you suffer from paranoia doesn't mean that they are not watching you!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

We haven't adequate electricity production and won't have for the foreseeable future, therefore there will eventually be blackouts. Can anyone suggest an easier way of forcibly limiting domestic power consumption than a smart meter? I wouldn't think anyone is being particularly paranoid to foresee their usage for this.

 

[Caldosan]

Regardless of the mechanism to cut power to homes and businesses, although tbh I think it will be centrally shut down if at all, this video is an interesting insight into the long standing plan if blackouts are needed.

Blackout Plan

 

[niemeyjt]

The French "Linky" equivalent also allows remote connection and disconnection - I was looking at a building with power off and the Linky was flashing a message of who to call to reset it and it was confirmed by the agent this was done remotely without a visit.

And remember, our businesses who know the price of everything and the value of nothing offshored production to China. I wonder if there are backdoors the Chinese could use for mischief making? After all, they have removed Chinese cameras from UK Gvt buildings on security grounds and not just to protect Matt Hancock.

 

[sploo]

Yeah ........... so my electricity will be cut off to ensure someone else's car is charged.

The opposite; the idea is that EV charge scheduling and current draw will be controlled in order to protect the grid and prevent blackouts.

Ironically the chap turned up to replace my meter turned up with a smart meter I didn't want. When he realised I was on economy7 he said oh, I can't fit it anyway, you'll have to have a standard meter. They don't work with economy7. This was five or six years ago.

That's true. I don't believe it's a physical issue; it's that having a separate day and night rate isn't properly handled by the current standards. There is progress in this area, but to the best of my knowledge it's not that great yet.

We haven't adequate electricity production and won't have for the foreseeable future, therefore there will eventually be blackouts. Can anyone suggest an easier way of forcibly limiting domestic power consumption than a smart meter? I wouldn't think anyone is being particularly paranoid to foresee their usage for this.

I don't know for certain, but I have seen a few claims that we do actually have sufficient production - if loads are spread out across 24 hours; hence the idea of scheduling EV charging at off peak times, then being able to use parked EV cars as batteries to supplement the grid when required. Latest info I've seen on the impact to EV batteries would suggest this doesn't actually have much of a negative effect (on the lifetime of your EV battery).

The French "Linky" equivalent also allows remote connection and disconnection - I was looking at a building with power off and the Linky was flashing a message of who to call to reset it and it was confirmed by the agent this was done remotely without a visit.

I believe the max current available to many French homes is relatively low. Certainly part of their system allows the meter to switch high draw loads (e.g. heaters) off in order to protect your metering kit. IRC it uses a radio system that's being deprecated, so it's needs replacing "soon".

 

[Phil Pascoe]

The opposite; the idea is that EV charge scheduling and current draw will be controlled in order to protect the grid and prevent blackouts...


I don't know for certain, but I have seen a few claims that we do actually have sufficient production - if loads are spread out across 24 hours;

So if push comes to shove as they're encouraging the purchase of electric vehicles they'll be prioritised. There'll be no point buying one if you're going to be told when you can and can't charge it.
..................

The load will never be spread over 24 hours so that's a moot point.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Change of tack, slightly - I notice from researching heat pump tumble dryers that some come with delayed start timers. They have obviously overcome any fire hazard, but I wonder if they would affect household insurance.
It pays us atm to use night rate electricity - 12p, rather than 40p - so when ours needs replacing it's a thought.

 

[pip1954]

Everyone has known for years EVs where coming so they should got there act together and got on with new power stations ,
Why are we not using the tide to generate our electricity we are an island the tide comes and goes every 12hours .
Eon is offering me money back if I hit a target between 5-6oclock 40% and we get £1.39 back they must be struggling

 

[sploo]

So if push comes to shove as they're encouraging the purchase of electric vehicles they'll be prioritised. There'll be no point buying one if you're going to be told when you can and can't charge it.
..................

The load will never be spread over 24 hours so that's a moot point.

They won't be prioritised over keeping people's lights on; again - that's the whole point of 15118-20 and OCPP 2.0; communication between the car, the charger, and the network operators, in order to schedule charging. A specific point of that system is that the EV charger "loses out" and must drop its power delivery when the available supply is low.

Few people drive overnight, so it doesn't matter if your car is charged at 8pm, 1am, or 5am (i.e. spreading the load over 24 hours).

Also, the amount of energy in an EV battery (compared to what's used in a home) is huge; so effectively having a distributed set of batteries all over the country means that with V2G (Vehicle to Grid) technology you've got a huge reservoir from which to draw power at peak demand.

As a rough example; UK households average around 10kWh of electric use per day. A single EV car with a 40kWh battery could therefore power 4 houses for the whole day. That's an extreme example; but the point is that you'd only need a handful of cars in a street with V2G technology to cover the whole street's load during peak hours, and those cars could then recharge overnight.

 

[selectortone]

Few people drive overnight, so it doesn't matter if your car is charged at 8pm, 1am, or 5am (i.e. spreading the load over 24 hours).

Absolutely. My daughter charges her EV at my house because she lives in a flat with no off street parking. She had a charge point put in and parks up once a week or so from 5pm to 8am. A full charge (not often necessary) takes 6-7 hours. A 3-hr power cut won't be a problem.

 

[dgs2001]

Not only have EV's been in the pipeline for years but the Nuclear Industry have been telling the government for over 10 years that their ageing fleet of power stations would be winding down generation in 10 years time and replacements should be planned and contruction started. Alas the government response was "10 years you say, well we don't need to worry about that yet"

Fast forward 10 years and we see one power station under construction, one in design and I believe 6 current stations which are now being wound down for decommissioning. Suddenly the Government wants to moan at EDF and say "but why didn't you tell us" and "here's £700M. What do you mean it takes 10 years to design plan and construct a nuclear power station, can't we get them built any quicker ?"

 

[TRITON]

other than having a nice little indoor display to obsess about.

fify

 

[niemeyjt]

https://www.bild.de/geld/wirtschaft...land-ein-e-auto-fahrverbot-82123068.bild.html
My translation program gives:

The Swiss are afraid of the blackout (in German: power failure) in winter.

In order to save electricity, driving bans for e-cars are to be issued in parallel in an emergency. Driving in e-cars is then only permitted for compelling reasons.

These include: trips to work, visits to the doctor and visits to the authorities, but also church services and other religious events.

Background: Switzerland imports a lot of electricity from France and Germany. Dependence on the neighbors is particularly high in winter because the Swiss hydroelectric power plants then supply less electricity.

Unlike neighboring EU countries, Switzerland does not have an electricity agreement with the EU. Means: In an emergency, the electricity will be turned off for the Swiss.