Will smart meters be used for the rolling blackouts?

[Agent_zed]

Been reading about the potential for rolling blackouts this winter and one thing struck me. They talk about different blocks being temporarily shut off but also about how certain places will be exempt e.g. care homes, hospitals and people with specific needs.

I may well be wrong but from my limited understanding you can't just turn off a substation/section in an area without it affecting everyone in that area. The only conceivable way I can think of (other than manually disconnecting everyone) is to use smart meters!

Whilst I'm not in to peddeling conspiracies, it does seem to me that we are seeing more and more that smart meters aren't there for the benefit of the user and instead to provide more control to the electricity providers.

I don't have one as so far I have not been convinced that there is any benefit to me. I have a perfectly good non-smart digital one and I know how much elec I use as I have a separate display that monitors the incoming cable. I still cook my dinner for the same amount of time though.

So am I completely off the mark with this assumption?

 

[julianf]

We were categorically told we would not have rolling blackouts.

 

[julianf]

In the early days of broad band / WiFi, I had an ADSL contract, whilst a friend who lived a couple of doors up did not.

I'd often need to be away for the weekend, and my girlfriend of the time would stay in the flat whilst I wasnt there.

She would complain about my friend sucking up all the bandwidth.

After a while she stopped complaining and, instead, my friend started talking about intermittent signal.

I mentioned this to my girlfriend, and she said "Yes, I've foiled him"

Sure enough, kit kat wrappers around the antenna...


We have a smart meter in a low signal area. I can get to both sides of the wall that it's mounted on, and understand (a little) about Faraday cages.

...or, I guess, I could just service the generator!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

We were categorically told we would not have rolling blackouts.

We were categorically lied to. We haven't enough generating capacity thanks to several decades of government incompetence.

 

[Pedronicus]

Ever since their inception I have never considered Smart Meters beneficial to the consumer other than having a nice little indoor display to look at.

 

[hunter27]

They wouldn't do this at the moment because they are doing their best to promote smart meters but when everyone is on them, well that's another thing.

 

[Agent_zed]

They wouldn't do this at the moment because they are doing their best to promote smart meters but when everyone is on them, well that's another thing.

I see your point but I can't see how they could achieve turning off elec in one house but not another (e.g. a carehome next door) without using smart meters?

 

[selectortone]

Three hour blackouts? Meh. We had a lot worse in the 70s.

I'm a widower, just me and the cat here. In the (IMHO unlikely) event of a 3-hr power cut I'll retire to my bed with a head torch, a good book and a warm cat. Big deal.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Smart meters can evidence power use, but as far as I am aware cannot switch the power on and off.

Thus they could be used for one proposed plan which was to rebate some consumers who reduced or ceased power use in periods of high demand.

If demand for energy exceeds that available the only options are (a) blackouts, (b) agreed power shedding strategies, or (c) back up power supplies (eg: standby generators).

Managers of critical infrastructures (eg: hospitals, emergency services) should already have contingency plans in place - they would otherwise be completely negligent.

Power shedding strategies need to be planned and agreed in advance or chaos rules. Could be switch off street lighting, reduce rail services, close public buildings early etc.

If blackouts are needed - far better that they are (a) rolling to share the pain, and (b) short (a couple of hours) and against a preannounced schedule.

This is all the result of a failure over the last three decades to invest in sufficient new capacity. The same NIMBYS who objected to new nuclear, solar and onshore wind will be up in arms about the failure they should ultimately take responsibility for.

 

[Agent_zed]

Smart meters can evidence power use, but as far as I am aware cannot switch the power on and off.

Well looking at the evidence being widely reported at the moment that elec companies can switch you to a prepayment plan, it would seem that they can cut the power on and off. Otherwise there is no point switching to prepayment. E.g if you don't pay the elec stops - therefore the meter has the ability to cut the supply. As this can be enacted remotely even if there is no direct on/off button there is in theory nothing to stop the elec companies doing a temporary switch to prepayment with a zero balance, which would effectively be an off switch. I'm am hypothesising here based on what I've seen and read so far but it would appear to be possible at least.

The plan may have changed but proposals I have seen pushed forward include exemptions for vulnerable people etc. Hospitals will have a generator etc but unlikely that a local care home will.

I agree with your sentiment though that if it is necessary then everyone should do there bit (If it is done by smart meters, I don't have one but I will still turn off my power) but some people can't for medical reasons.

But it still comes back to the question of how it will be implemented? The only way I can see you can do it to such a granular extent is by smart meters, unless I am missing something.

 

[sploo]

It's true that smart meters can be remotely configured to go into prepayment mode; whereas it used to require physical access to a property to install a prepay meter. It's also true that some suppliers are remotely switching vulnerable customers and that this is (rightly) making the news at the moment.

A supplier could cut off your power with an old "non smart" meter; albeit it was more difficult. In terms of planning rolling blackouts; that would obviously be a hugely unpopular step, but if it were done instead of the grid being damaged (leading to longer down time) it would be the safer option.

In terms of grid capacity and large power users (i.e. EV charging) there's a lot of work on the new EV charging standards to ensure that chargers communicate with the grid to both schedule charging and control current draw in order to spread the load on the grid. There's also a lot of work on V2G (Vehicle to Grid); whereby it'll be possible to use parked cars as batteries; in order to smooth out the load on the grid. If you're feeling particularly bored (and rich) you can purchase, and flick through the 572 pages of ISO 15118-20 .

 

[Pedronicus]

I would imagine that rolling power cuts will play havoc with all those EVs not being charged and ready for use in the morning!

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Electricity companies can change your payment plan remotely - that is just an IT admin task although its legality may be questionable unless they have good grounds. But if folk don't pay, or don't create a dialogue, then they may be justified.

But AFAIK to actually disconnect a property from the network requires physical access either to the property, or if served directly from the street, the cable. They also require (I understand) a court order.

From a very superficial inspection of my smart meter installation it seems none of the components could support the switching of a load of up to 100 amps which I assume would need reasonably cables and contacts etc.

 

[sploo]

I would imagine that rolling power cuts will play havoc with all those EVs not being charged and ready for use in the morning!

That's part of the 15118 standards - to incorporate charging schedules to allow a vehicle to be charged to the requested level by the appropriate time (and avoid killing the grid in the process).

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yeah ........... so my electricity will be cut off to ensure someone else's car is charged.

 

[Agent_zed]

Electricity companies can change your payment plan remotely - that is just an IT admin task although its legality may be questionable unless they have good grounds. But if folk don't pay, or don't create a dialogue, then they may be justified.

But AFAIK to actually disconnect a property from the network requires physical access either to the property, or if served directly from the street, the cable. They also require (I understand) a court order.

From a very superficial inspection of my smart meter installation it seems none of the components could support the switching of a load of up to 100 amps which I assume would need reasonably cables and contacts etc.

Well this video of the breakdown of a smart meter suggests otherwise. At around 7m 5secs in you get to see the nice big relay that disconnects the supply. This might not be the case with all smart meters but I would be suprised if they didn't. Why else would you go to the trouble of installing a meter that only sends you readings when you can also have it so you can change the payment type and remotely disconnect, all without having to send someone round.

 

[Agent_zed]

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/c...told-your-energy-supply-will-be-disconnected/
"If you have a smart energy meter in your home, your supplier could potentially disconnect your supply remotely without needing access to your meter."

Not trying to scare anyone or spread disinformation but this is the info from citizens advice and the youtube video is pretty clear on having the components in there already.

 

[thetyreman]

until it actually happens, I don't believe it.

 

[Agent_zed]

To be honest I don't think it will come to it but 'if' they have to protect the grid it's the only way I can see is feasible to disconnect some and leave others connected?!

 

[D_W]

When that occurs, and if it does, it will be promoted as being able to coordinate blackouts or brown outs but leaving homes of the vulnerable unaffected.

Realistically, though, long before we had smart meters in the US, we had a snap where the daytime temp was -10F in pennsylvania. Power consumption was so high that there were very short term coordinated outages. This was around 1994 or so. The outages were just less "smart". Not sure what difference it makes.

Smart meters are installed for three reasons, maybe four:
1) to eventually encourage you to modify your behavior with how much power you use and when
2) to provide a constant data feed about your habits to electric companies, and potentially collect other data that's marketable if the meters are able to do it (could be general wireless data, etc)
3) eliminate the walking meter reader. Water, gas and electric have all become remote here in the last 20 years.
4) probably to conform to federal requirements about collecting and reporting data

The effort at convincing people that there was something useful about them to the public was pretty poor here - as in, there was little attempt to make it seem like it was for our benefit.

we don't have tiered pricing unless you opt in. The amount of savings for tiered pricing that was possible was probably on the order of about $5 a month on average for a household like mine, but the chance of using extra power peak on hot days would almost certainly cause the opposite result by a lot more than $5, and it would've created an annoying obligation to think about everything, from using an oven in the evening to when you could run the dryer in the house. The power companies already had rates set with regulators that give them reasonable room but not tons, so they weren't about to offer any significant savings for changing behavior.

Story is probably a little different in other states where grid management is more difficult. heating in my state is largely gas/oil/propane. I would expect as EVs become more prevalent, tiered pricing will become mandatory.