WARNING ABOUT USING SENECA ADAPTER WITH XL700 DOMINO

[Simou1]

Not an unverified accusation at all Mike, I used the terms 'hazard a guess' and 'not beyond the realms of possibility'. At least with Seneca you do know that you are purchasing off a well established and well respected firm.

Festool haven't differentiated twixt the two as far as I am aware, but were it me adding an adapter to my expensive Domino I know where my money would be going.

 

[pike]

Didn't mean to cause any trouble

Pike, just seen you're from York, I'm about 15 miles outside York.

Doug

Hey Doug. FOG was a good place to put it to shed some light on the issue. Personally I have both 500/700 anyway.
Yeah I'm up near Monks Cross. You?

 

[Benchwayze]

I know that a mobile phone is a different kettle, but my phone manufacturer warns me about using an aftermarket charger. I should only use their model.

For' about 5 years now I have used the Amazon adapter, that came with my Kindle, to charge phones (Not just my own) and even to attach phones to my PC. I have also charged my Kindle using a phone charger. So far I have had no problems. I think this is a ploy by manufacturers, in order to sell more of their own stuff; which of course will also work with other phones, using the same connection point. Maybe Festool should look to their gearboxes? I fail to see how the adapter can cause misalignment of the gearbox. Sounds fishy to me. Maybe the Domino knows that the adapter is the wrong colour? 8)

This is just like the 'mandate' that says you must keep packaging if you want to return goods. Rubbish. Manufacturers say it is to ensure the returned item is a genuine sale. Rubbish again! That is the purpose of receipts and invoices. In truth the practice enables firms to ship returned goods straight out to some other unsuspecting buyer; as reading of reviews on Amazon will often attest. The Sale of Goods Act has covered such practices and I no longer save packaging. I have neither the room nor the patience for it. If something malfunctions then I expect a firm to comply with the SOG Act, regardless of packaging. .

 

[sploo]

From an engineering standpoint, the RTS-500 isn't adapting the tool to use the smaller cutters. It is adapting the smaller cutters to use the tool. That may sound like a trivial distinction, but to an engineer, it is significant. It also means that it is not the cause of warranty claims.

We took great care in engineering our cutter adapter so that the forces exerted on the Domino Xl / DF 700 using the DF 500 cutters with our adapter are less than the machine normally experiences when using the standard DF 700 cutters.

Those two comments pretty much nail the point I made earlier - I can see the DF700 damaging the DF500 bits (if used aggressively) but the normal forces a DF700 would experience with its larger bits should be way more than anything you'd manage to put on it with the DF500 bit and the adaptor.

I suspect the "adaptor + DF500 bit damages the gearbox" line is standard corporate *rse covering. I'm not being negative towards Festool; they can't be expected to cover you if you're using third party accessories - but I strongly doubt it'll cause a problem.

 

[Doug71]

I know Festool want us to buy both dominos but realistically few people will. They should see the Seneca adapter as a way of upselling. Most people can get by with just the 500 but would buy the 700 for the odd time they might need it if it can also do the smaller stuff.

Pike, I'm in Bubwith, little village south east of York, we got a great little deli and off licence, jugandbottle.co.uk ,worth a trip out.

 

[sploo]

I know Festool want us to buy both dominos but realistically few people will. They should see the Seneca adapter as a way of upselling. Most people can get by with just the 500 but would buy the 700 for the odd time they might need it if it can also do the smaller stuff.

Pike, I'm in Bubwith, little village south east of York, we got a great little deli and off licence, jugandbottle.co.uk ,worth a trip out.

Exactly - part of my reasoning for buying the DF700 (with the Seneca adaptor) was that I could then also buy the DF500 bits and dominos. I have, to be honest, used the DF500 sizes more than the DF700 specific, but I've been glad of the extra capacity of the DF700 on a few occasions. Overall then, Festool got more money out of me than if I'd just bought a DF500.

BTW I'm just about to move up to your area (well, between Leeds and Harrogate), so I'm sure I'll be putting up a forum post asking for local knowledge soon :wink:

 

[pike]

It's easy to say after having bought the 500 then got the 700 later for a specific job, but I wouldn't really want to use the 700 day in day out for all the smaller work (90%) of what I use a domino for.

Doug, sounds nice! By the way, there's a bloke in Home on Spalding Moor who CNC'ed an MFT top for me for a good price.

Sploo: Hope the move goes well! John Boddys used to be a great timber supplier but now that they are gone I heard Duffield Timber is worth a trip.

 

[sploo]

It's easy to say after having bought the 500 then got the 700 later for a specific job, but I wouldn't really want to use the 700 day in day out for all the smaller work (90%) of what I use a domino for.

Doug, sounds nice! By the way, there's a bloke in Home on Spalding Moor who CNC'ed an MFT top for me for a good price.

Sploo: Hope the move goes well! John Boddys used to be a great timber supplier but now that they are gone I heard Duffield Timber is worth a trip.

Yea, the 700 is a bit heavy. I doubt I'd want to lug it around all day long - though I mostly tend to build on a worktop so it's not constantly in my hand. That said, I much prefer the ergonomic design of the 700 vs the 500.

Duffield Timber noted; that's a 30 minute trip from where I'll be so that's very useful to know!

 

[ghettoblaster]

Asked a Festool demonstrator about this issue today and he got his knickers in quite a twist. None of his arguments about a 4mm cutter putting more strain on the motor than a 14mm cutter stacked up,supprisingly. When he said "if the adapters were so good we would make them ourselves" and I suggested that it was more likely that they wanted to sell both machines he got quite pineappled off, became defensive, changed the subject and started waffling on about how good their warranty and customer service are.

A pain really as I have a Domino XL and was about to buy an adapter until reading this. However as another rep said if you send it back for repair then just take the adapter off as they have no way to prove you used an after market accessory!

After looking at them today who uses 4mm dominoes anyway they are bloody tiny?!

 

[Peter Sefton]

We do use 4mm Dominos but we do some small and delicate work.

If you go by the tradition of mortice being 1/3 the thickness of the component then when using 12mm stock 4mm is spot on.

Cheers Peter

 

[custard]

After looking at them today who uses 4mm dominoes anyway they are bloody tiny?!

It's a quick way of making drawer boxes from 12mm ply. As well as Peter's point about their thickness there's also their length, 4mm Dominos are short enough that the mortice just fits in 12mm ply.

 

[Doug B]

After looking at them today who uses 4mm dominoes anyway they are bloody tiny?!

My second most used domino size, great for intricate work as well as jointing solid door panels

 

[ghettoblaster]

Haha! I wasn't being serious! It was just a shock having only used the 14x140 and a couple of 10x sizes so far, they were the size of my fingernail!
More puzzled about using the XL with the adapter for cutting the 4mm, bet that's not so much fun as with the 500.

 

[Jake]

Little ones are good in mitres too (and no I wouldn't want to use the XL for that).

 

[Joshjosh]

Hi
Did this issue ever get resolved? I’m deciding between the 500 and 700
Thanks josh

 

[sploo]

Hi
Did this issue ever get resolved? I’m deciding between the 500 and 700
Thanks josh

I don't think there's anything to resolve; I've been using the DF700 for years, with and without the Seneca adaptor. Hundreds of dominos later - no problems.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I've followed this with interest.

Last year I bought an XL 700 when there was an offer, but beyond some test cuts, I've had little chance to use it and the weather (amongst other things) presently keeps me, or at least any tool I don't want going rusty, out of the workshop.

In November, whilst in the States, I bought Seneca's adapter (from Toolnut, if anyone cares).

Some observations:

• Out of the box my Domino is dead-on accurate. My test mortices have been brilliant.
  .
• Seneca's adapter* is extremely well machined, and a lot smaller and lighter weight than I expected. With a 6mm Festool cutter, the two together weigh slightly LESS than the 14mm cutter on its own, but it is very close (I've just checked this using a balance).
  .
• It is true that the smaller cutters are turning at a slower speed than in the 500. Does this matter? Well obviously they cut slower, so you have to use the plunge slightly more slowly, but, as long as they are sharp enough it shouldn't be critical.
  
  When I started woodworking I had no power tools at all. I drilled holes with a wheelbrace or a hand brace. The wheelbrace had jobber twist drills in it, probably ground for metal. I doubt I managed more than a few hundred RPM. Those holes were neat if I needed them to be. If the Domino cutters are blunt, all bets are off, but the slower speed won't be the main reason for problems!
  
  The linear speed of the cutter is proportional to the diameter differences (Pi x D / second). There's little reason that the bigger Domino couldn't have been designed to rotate at the same speed as the 500, except that Festool probably found in development that the biggest cutters (14mm) were running too fast.. We know from drilling and router bits that there's a sweet spot for cutter speed, but that's within a range where the tool will still work acceptably. We also know that too fast is probably worse than too slow, because of burning of the workpiece and dulling of the cutting edge. So, taking all that into consideration, putting a 4mm cutter on an XL700 probably won't get as perfect a slot as with the 500, but it will work, and it probably won't wear the machine out in any way.
  .
• The "extra mass" of the Seneca adapter has been suggested as an issue. This can't affect the rotation really, but it might affact the oscillating action (being charitable here to the worriers).
  
  But that extra mass, which is tiny to start with, is near the motor end of things, and the angles involved mean its effect is scaled down proportionally. I'd guess it would have far less effect than hitting a tough knot with the end of one of the bigger cutters, and without the percussive effect of that, too.
  
  In any case, as any schoolboy will tell you, because the gearbox has a rotation to give the oscillation, the movement is approximately sinusoidal**, so it starts to move from the extreme of its swing relatively slowly, like a clock pendulum, which is also momentarily stationary at the extremes.
  
  So where is the gearbox-destroying force going to come from? I struggle to find anything in this usage model that might cause damage. A Domino XL 700 is a trade-rated tool at worst, but "semi-industrial" would be more realistic. Festool have built it strong enough to be worked hard, and in that context, the Seneca adapter's contribution to wear must be immeasurably small.
  
  And the final nail in this argument's coffin is that there isn't any extra mass - the cutter and adapter together weigh less than the 14mm cutter, although I cannot say by exactly how much.
  .

Aside: before I bought the adapter I corresponded with Ryan about it and some other stuff. He was open, polite and gracious in answering some of my questions, and kind to do so as he must be busy! Seneca doesn't come across as a firm trying to make a quick buck at the expense of woodworkers, but as people trying to make a living from well-executed, innovative ideas - much like Festool but on a smaller scale!

E.

PS: Edited the above: I _thought_ there was a centring cone on the cutter threads - there isn't (memory playing tricks on me!).

*USproduct = US spelling
**i assume it isn't actually, because there is a pivot, but that's getting a bit anal about it.

 

[johnnyb]

To me this whole things suggests festool products are not "all that" . My 700 is also not well aligned. Is my gearbox suspect as well? Ffs these things are stupidly expensive.
Festool are overpriced and underengineered. But they are innovative!

 

[Bodgers]

To me this whole things suggests festool products are not "all that" . My 700 is also not well aligned. Is my gearbox suspect as well? Ffs these things are stupidly expensive.
Festool are overpriced and underengineered. But they are innovative!

Like most things, they do go wrong, but Festool are very good about repairs generally.

After 6 months the motor blew up in my DF500 in a puff of smoke. They repaired it and turned it around in a few days without fuss.

I had a similar experience with a Makita tool and getting it sent and repaired was a long, drawn out, and painful experience....