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Droogs

Is that chisel shar ... Ow
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And in a few years populate with wild boar and deer to replace beef on our diet, much healthier for us and the forrest.
 

Dave Moore

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You must stop eating all this flesh, it is a major contributor to the greenhouse gas Methane and if cows were capable of smoking then I dare say there would have been a few exploding cows around.
BS. There is a problem with cows gases simply because of the amount of drugs pumped into them. Let them live naturally then there is no problem. The problem is all the chemicals that the food companies are putting in
your ‘food’ , it’s not food. It’s all processed chemicals and what do you think the carbon footprint is of the factories. Same as wind turbines, box ticking. Over 1 tonne of co2 to produce 1 tonne of steel. How many tonnes in the tower of a wind turbine? All BS. Only half the narrative that should be spoken.
 

RobinBHM

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BS. There is a problem with cows gases simply because of the amount of drugs pumped into them. Let them live naturally then there is no problem. The problem is all the chemicals that the food companies are putting in
your ‘food’ , it’s not food. It’s all processed chemicals and what do you think the carbon footprint is of the factories. Same as wind turbines, box ticking. Over 1 tonne of co2 to produce 1 tonne of steel. How many tonnes in the tower of a wind turbine? All BS. Only half the narrative that should be spoken.
I do wonder sometimes if we eat anything actually that is truly natural.

Vegetables are often grown almost entirely with chemicals...esp greenhouse crops that are hydroponic.
 

Doug B

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The problem with livestock isn’t their emissions more the fact that 40% of the worlds grain is used to feed them, but then again why feed the starving in the third world countries when we can feed live stock & make the populations of the “1st“ world countries even more obese :unsure:
 

clogs

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thanks for the vid OZI.....
reminds me of when I lived in Sweden......too Bxxxxx cold, summers were great but those dark nights for nearly 6months....
all that lovely timber.....mmmmm
here in Crete it's actually cheaper to build with steel than timber.......
constantly looking in skips for off cuts.....
I buy as new Euro pallets for €3 and take them apart for the timber.....I have n use the biggest Evolution metal circ saw to chop the corner blocks and then punch the nails out...takes 5 mins per pallet now and no split wood.....
I would estimate to make a new pallet here would be over 30euros if the wood was bought locally.....and it rubbish...
a 19mm x8x4 plywood sheet that only just better than shuttering ply is over €60 per sheet.....
double skinned, insulated roof sheets are less than €18 per meter2......!!!!!!!! just plain crazy......
I was told that qual hardwood timber was sourced from places like Siria and Iran.....but that trade has died.....

as for burgers dont really eat em anymore prefer BBQ fish.....although the odd Scottish Highland cow burger is very tastey....
best fish for me is mackerel in a little white wine (cooked in ally foil) or just plain burnt or slices of Salmon cooked with finley cut red onion and in Soy souce on a griddle.......
at BBQ time my fav is the above fish and Potato, mixed salad and red cabbage if I can get it...plus Greek salad.....
yes I'm weird......hahaha....

I find it diff to see all the wasted grass around the fields of solar farms.....in every country.....
here you often see sheep n goats eating at the side of the road....(very rural) and it's easy to invite the local farmer to get his animals in to clear our unused fields.....

pract all veg and salads are grown locally, U can buy direct from the farmer...
little if any pestersides are used because they can't afford them...they farm the old fashioned way and Bio-organic is quite natural.....
Taste the difference to coin a phrase.........hahaha........
have a good weekend........
 

treeturner123

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Just to wade in with this.

Clogs is right, locally produced food, no matter what, is the best.

I do worry about the anti cow brigade who clearly don't realise that in the UK and Ireland a large proportion of beef and lamb is raised on grass (itself a very bio-diverse 'crop') often in areas that would be less good for arable either because of poor soil or, as round here, steep slopes making the use of tractors impossible. Also, do look up what happened in Germany in WW2 when they decided pigs ate too much food and most were slaughtered - utter chaos and less food produced as the slurry was used to fertilised the land naturally and they mostly ate reject produce!

Indeed as several have pointed out, arable has much more chemical AND water input and is ALWAYS a mono-culture. Added to this, much of the wheat, barley and yellow peril (aka rape), is winter planted and therefore does not allow many of the bird species that used to nest in open fields to breed, especially Lapwing.

However, I do believe that one of the improvements is Hydroponics which can work in industrial buildings, using recycled water but which do need the addition of basic chemicals and electricity for the coloured LED Lighting.

Luckily, grapes grow well on very stony, steep slopes so that's alright!

Phil
 

D_W

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The problem with livestock isn’t their emissions more the fact that 40% of the worlds grain is used to feed them, but then again why feed the starving in the third world countries when we can feed live stock & make the populations of the “1st“ world countries even more obese :unsure:
I think you'd find the world's grain to have a caloric surplus in terms of human consumption - by a long shot. About half of the corn crop in the US is converted to ethanol.

The issue is distribution and corruption, not a caloric shortage.

Our obesity issue isn't due to meat consumption, in terms of caloric standards, meat is less dense than most of what we've eaten historically. It's more likely to be attributed to increased sugar and grains (especially refined grains).

Not making the case that it's healthy to eat lots of meat, especially if it's red meat, as everything seems to run counter to that, but I don't think meat consumption has much to do with western obesity. Cheap refined oils and refined carbohydrates (including sugars) cause us to eat really calorie dense food that's very cheap compared to our means.
 

D_W

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just the sugar, without regard to the refined carbs:

There's more in obesity there in terms of annual weight gain all else neutral than is actually here in obesity. That is, if the sugar consumption is up 30 pounds a year over a prior date, then that's equivalent to 4/9ths of the amount in body weight, or 13 1/3rd pounds per year.
 

Doug B

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You can dress it up however you like DW but I seem to know a lot of vegetarians (not that I am one) but I can’t think of one that is fat let alone obese, a quick google suggests this also is the case in studies of carnivores & vegetarians
 

EddyCurrent

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This video tells you everything you need to know, grab a homemade grass fed cow burger and enjoy.


The Paleo diet works extremely well for me.

Don't let the word DIET put you off, it's not a weight loss diet, although you will loose weight, it's a healthy lifestyle way of eating that includes plenty of lean meat.
 
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D_W

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You can dress it up however you like DW but I seem to know a lot of vegetarians (not that I am one) but I can’t think of one that is fat let alone obese, a quick google suggests this also is the case in studies of carnivores & vegetarians
That's funny, as my p-doc says some of the most screwed up labs that he sees are from vegetarians - vegans, especially.

I'd suspect that the lower rate of obesity has zero to do with meat and more to do with the fact that most vegetarians are health conscious. The majority are here, at least.
 

Doug B

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I'd suspect that the lower rate of obesity has zero to do with meat and more to do with the fact that most vegetarians are health conscious. The majority are here, at least.
most of the ones I know drink like fish so definitely don’t fall into the health conscious
 

D_W

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most of the ones I know drink like fish so definitely don’t fall into the health conscious
It's interesting you mention drinkers - I take a nip of brandy before bed, but not enough to affect sleep. I don't know any actual alcoholics but know some serious social drinkers (who would probably classify as alcoholics, I guess, just not the drunk 24/7 type) - they're all fit, very social and exercise.

Most of the heavy people I know just have bad eating habits, but it's not eating too much meat - it's eating too much of the stuff here that drives up insulin and makes you want more.

I'm tubby (200lbs at 5'9", but it's never meat that I overeat - it's garbage late at night before going to bed. If I skipped that stuff, I'd weigh 110 pounds by now).

I notice that most vegetarians want to blame everything on meat, but what they really want is to try to get people to stop eating animals and animal products. I'm not buying into it. I think overeating meat isn't great for you. I doubt on a same caloric basis with meat at 1900 levels (half of what americans consume), there wouldn't be much difference in health.
 

niemeyjt

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Perhaps we could replant them with trees, healthier for the environment, proven to help rainfall be absorbed into the soil at a far greater rate than pasture so reducing flooding & would give a plentiful supply of timber for future generations of woodworkers. Win win :unsure:
You don't think another group will be upset at the loss of flora (esp) and fauna that lives in grassland environments?
 

Doug B

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You don't think another group will be upset at the loss of flora (esp) and fauna that lives in grassland environments?
I’ve no doubt, whenever there’s change there’s upset, on the other hand it’s estimated we are down from 75% coverage of the uk with forest to under 12% so we’d be rebalancing rather than changing, giving back habitat that has been lost to farming & so encouraging the re-growth of already lost native flora & fauna.
 

RobinBHM

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just the sugar, without regard to the refined carbs:

There's more in obesity there in terms of annual weight gain all else neutral than is actually here in obesity. That is, if the sugar consumption is up 30 pounds a year over a prior date, then that's equivalent to 4/9ths of the amount in body weight, or 13 1/3rd pounds per year.
I believe there has been a realisation that decades of health messaging that fat, esp saturated fat is the primary cause of health issues and weight gain.....is a load of hogwash.

Sugar and carbs are the real bad guys.
 

Phil Russell

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As for ending meat production - can someone help me understand what we do with grass meadows etc when there are no livestock to graze. Do we plough them up for cereal crops?
Generally speaking 'yes' but, and there is always a 'but', there will be a good proportion of such land that is not suitable for cereal or other arable production; a point sometimes forgotten. And then again, hill land in e.g. Wales is not suitable for anything other than sheep. I guess you could always grow a hay/silage crop to feed factory farmed livestock but that would upset many people. Or maybe cover the area with solar panels .. oh hang on, I think that is being done somewhere with sheep grazing underneath the panels.
I have heard it suggested that we do away with golf courses and plant arable crops on the land. Whatever happens, the world will soon run out of space to grow enough food and all options must be looked at to increase food supply. Anyone for a locust burger?
Cheers, Phil
 

guineafowl21

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I don’t think non-farming people realise quite how much diesel is sucked up to prepare ground for cereal crops or, as above, recognise the point above ^^^ that not all land can be ploughed up. Animals also use the waste straw and provide excellent natural fertiliser. Mixed farming is the way, and has been for millennia.

Ploughing involves, effectively, picking up the top 4-6” of soil and moving it to one side. A huge amount of work. It’s then maintained as a monoculture. In contrast, long-term grass leys are pretty much left alone for 10-15 years.

It’s not just ploughing, it’s discing, harrowing, drilling, rolling, spraying, combining, grain drying.... etc. The end result is a more efficient source of calories, yes, but a poorer source of protein, iron and B vitamins.

Notice how your breakfast cereal is ‘fortified with vitamins and iron?’
 
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