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Vaccine Passports (domestic).

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Snettymakes

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How do you solve the side effects of a vaccine passport then? Given that the side effects are discrimination and the further erosion of our civil liberties?
How indeed. I'm glad that you're asking the question, that's a good starting point.
 

Rorschach

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How indeed. I'm glad that you're asking the question, that's a good starting point.
But I don't need to solve the side effects, I don't want vaccine passports in the first place, you do. lol

That's why I am asking you the question.
 

Jonm

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There are real practical difficulties. How is it going to be made difficult to forge, photo, biometrics etc. How would it be implemented, how would it be enforced, how long to set up and how much would it cost. There is no point in setting up a half baked system which sounds good but in practice is easy to get round, inconveniences most of us and costs us a fortune for no real benefit.

Take London Underground, up to five million passenger journeys a day, at peak times, there are more than 543 trains. How do you check five million people on one day have a valid vaccination certificate. What about visitors from abroad, ok may be checked on entry but what happens when they try to get on a bus or go to a restaurant, what document do they produce.

I think one big problem is the lack of trust in authority. We have a prime minister who was sacked for lying as a journalist, sacked for lying as a front bench spokesman and has consistently lied to us like telling Northern Ireland businesses they can put customs declarations forms “in the bin” because there will be “no barriers of any kind” to trade crossing the Irish Sea. No wonder people believe what they read from their peers on social media rather than trust authority.

I think we have to keep up with trying to persuade particularly those who are vulnerable to have the vaccine. Perhaps this should also be through social media. Hopefully when those who are reluctant see people who have had the vaccine walking about whilst others who have refused the vaccine are ill or dying then some common sense will kick in.
 

Jonm

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I'd like to see the vulnerable all get a vaccine if they want.

The less vulnerable really shouldn't. We have immune systems so get them functioning. The vaccine may prevent other parts of our immune system acting optimally in due course.

I'm not anti vax.
That was my reaction to the flu jab, do not have it and build up my resistance. Now I am older I have the flu jab. I think Covid at present is different, large numbers of vaccinated people mixing with large numbers of unvaccinated people give mutations which get round the vaccine the opportunity to thrive. We do not want to go through this again because of a mutation.
 

Rorschach

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You bring up some good points there @Jonm especially regarding transport. Being a frequent visitor to London it would be impossible to deal with on the underground even at off-peak times.

I think hospitality might try and force the issue but I can't see it lasting, can they afford the loss in trade of turning away those who refuse to provide proof? If the certificate is digital, what do you do about those who refuse to have a smart phone? Businesses certainly can't afford to turn away the "grey pound" as it's known. If it's paper, how easy is it to forge? Probably very easy.

And of course the whole system falls apart once one pub chain for example decides you don't need a certificate, because then the whole system looks pointless.
 

Cheshirechappie

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A discussion about this a day or two ago on Radio 4 revolved entirely around ideas for a Covid passport (domestic version) being "an app".

Fine - but what provision for those who do not own a mobile phone?

(Personally, I'm not in favour of any sort of vaccine passport for domestic use. I suspect that infection rates are dropping fast enough, and vaccination proceeding quickly enough, to make them unnecessary by the time pubs etc are scheduled to reopen. I also don't like the idea of jumped-up jobsworths demanding to "see your papers".)
 

Jonzjob

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Is it even a vaccine?


It seems that it doesn't stop you getting, just lessens the effects and you can still be a carrier. I'm sure that if a door handle can carry it then anything/body can.
 

Snettymakes

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But I don't need to solve the side effects, I don't want vaccine passports in the first place, you do. lol

That's why I am asking you the question.
Nice of you to bring up another problem I have with most political conversations. Distilling somebody's views down to "are you for or against", and "if you disagree with X then you clearly are against" is a nonsense that ends up with polarising views, and the horrific state of politics that we find ourselves in.

You appear to have distilled the two replies I have so far given, down to "I want vaccine passports". Whilst I may have views on particular arguments, I do not have anywhere sufficient knowledge or experience to be able to give a definitive opinion.

I just wish people would discuss merits with an open mind. Most don't.
 

Rorschach

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Nice of you to bring up another problem I have with most political conversations. Distilling somebody's views down to "are you for or against", and "if you disagree with X then you clearly are against" is a nonsense that ends up with polarising views, and the horrific state of politics that we find ourselves in.

You appear to have distilled the two replies I have so far given, down to "I want vaccine passports". Whilst I may have views on particular arguments, I do not have anywhere sufficient knowledge or experience to be able to give a definitive opinion.

I just wish people would discuss merits with an open mind. Most don't.
My apologies, I have just looked back and you are right you didn't state a definitive opinion, not quite sure why I thought you did, might have been confusing you with someone else, sorry about that.
 

Rorschach

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That is exactly the point. If you are part of a society you need to accept that there are things you need to do that you may not want to do if you want to be part of that society and gain the advantages from it.
That's a fair point of course. The question really is where do the obligations stop? Is having a forced (or coerced) medical procedure a reasonable step to take? Is that as acceptable as paying taxes for example?

I have sat on trains next to some really dirty and smelly people, should they be obliged to take a shower and wash their clothes? If they say no should we forcibly wash them or prevent them accessing the places we all take for granted like supermarkets? I see people who use the toilets and don't wash their hands, should we force them to do that? Should we make them provide a certificate of clean hands to go into a shop? Arguably not washing your hands after using the toilet is a greater health hazard than C19 will be very soon.
It's a complicated matter isn't it.
 

Jonm

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That's a fair point of course. The question really is where do the obligations stop? Is having a forced (or coerced) medical procedure a reasonable step to take? Is that as acceptable as paying taxes for example?

I have sat on trains next to some really dirty and smelly people, should they be obliged to take a shower and wash their clothes? If they say no should we forcibly wash them or prevent them accessing the places we all take for granted like supermarkets? I see people who use the toilets and don't wash their hands, should we force them to do that? Should we make them provide a certificate of clean hands to go into a shop? Arguably not washing your hands after using the toilet is a greater health hazard than C19 will be very soon.
It's a complicated matter isn't it.
As one of my teachers said many years ago “Robinson Crusoe was free until Man Friday arrived”.
 

Droogs

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Just opened a letter from NHS Scotland and the Scottish Gov. Telling me I can't go and vote in the election, I have to get a postal vote instead. Bleeding faff:(
 

Robbo60

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got mine Saturday. Second one 16th May before travel ban lifted on 17th - hopefully. On a plane on 30th May for four weeks in the sun - If they let us in??
 

Ozi

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I'd like to see the vulnerable all get a vaccine if they want.

The less vulnerable really shouldn't. We have immune systems so get them functioning. The vaccine may prevent other parts of our immune system acting optimally in due course.

I'm not anti vax.
And the fastest way to activate your immune system.....Vaccinate
If you can show how that prevents any additional immune response your well on the way to a Noble prize.
 

Blackswanwood

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While I would be content to carry one I very much doubt other than for international travel it will happen. It’s yet another COVID topic that very much divides opinion and when it comes to it I expect it will get hoofed into the long grass.

A silver lining on the COVID story for me this week has been talking with some of the guys in my area of the business who we set up to support the lonely and vulnerable in April last year by giving them an hour each week to call them for a chat. Typically these are 18 - 24 year olds calling pensioners ... their concern was that we stop the initiative when things get back to normal as they enjoy it as much as those they call do.
 

Rorschach

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While I would be content to carry one I very much doubt other than for international travel it will happen. It’s yet another COVID topic that very much divides opinion and when it comes to it I expect it will get hoofed into the long grass.

A silver lining on the COVID story for me this week has been talking with some of the guys in my area of the business who we set up to support the lonely and vulnerable in April last year by giving them an hour each week to call them for a chat. Typically these are 18 - 24 year olds calling pensioners ... their concern was that we stop the initiative when things get back to normal as they enjoy it as much as those they call do.
That's a great thing to do. Maybe instead of just the calling you could up it a notch and set aside time to visit the pensioners for a cup of tea, that would be even better than a call.
 

FatmanG

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That is exactly the point. If you are part of a society you need to accept that there are things you need to do that you may not want to do if you want to be part of that society and gain the advantages from it.
Just out of interest how do you expect people to opt out of society? We are a nation of laws that respect human rights, the Nuremberg code was established after the Holocaust/ww2 for a reason. Once you let government start deciding what must go into your body eventually something nefarious will happen. History is littered with countless examples. Being merely born makes you part of society and until society and not govt by dictat change the rules then they must remain. We are not China
 
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