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Jelly

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any chance of some commission? if they do. :) I'm sure I heard in the early days of the vaccine, that for 10%. it would be completely ineffective. Not sure if that is still the case, but that has always been a concern of mine. I am vaccinated, but no idea how well I am protected.
Chance would be a fine thing!

I will certainly share their info if they have a suitable product available though.
 

Jelly

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Another vaccine morality question:

To quote Monty Python: "It makes you think, doesn't it?"
Not really, no.

The vast majority of vaccines are given to children, the vast majority of technical experts in vaccination topics are from a pediatrics background, and almost all vaccines have been tested by clinical trials in children.

The process is to do animal trials, then trials in healthy adult volunteers to confirm the safety of a treatment, then move to seperate adult and pediatric trials to verify efficacy because you can't assume the two groups will respond exactly the same in terms of outcomes, and understanding the difference allows us to give better treatment.
 

Jelly

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@Jelly once again while we do agree entirely, you make some good points.

I of course do not want them, but I can foresee them being imposed however as you and others have said by the time the slow, wasteful (20 billion track and trace fiasco) bureaucracy actually gets a workable system going, it won't even be needed as the vast majority will already be vaccinated.
I think even floating the idea will cause big arguments and divisions in the country and is totally unnecessary.
I think it's inevitable that like workplace testing, workplace vaccination requirements will be a thing... As I pointed out it's already normal for workers in the Water, Waste, Pharmaceuticals and Healthcare sectors.

That means we need to do something to make that straightforward, utilising the existing frameworks around how occupational health is dealt with in a HR setting, and the "Carte Jaune" or an equivalent to document would likely be sufficient for that purpose...

It's implementation across the whole of society for venues, shops etc. which is liable to become problematic.
 

Lons

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Employer says, "to work in my company you need to provide proof of vaccination, that is part of our terms and conditions", prospective employee has the right to choose and if he decides not to be vaccinated the offer is withdrawn because he doesn't meet the required criteria and he goes elsewhere. No-one forces him or her to do the job, he has made the choice.
There is another side to this as the employer has a legal responsibility to protect his employees and provide safe working conditions by employing non vaccinated people he is arguably risking prosecution if one of his vaccinated staff members catches the virus and becomes seriously ill because of it.
In a blame society with no win no fee lawyers tell me that can't happen and I won't believe you.

There are many jobs where it is mandatory to provide detailed information, the very people who are on the front line of this pandemic are a case in point and would anyone here want their children to be looked after by anyone who hasn't been thoroughly vetted and cleared to work with juveniles? A bit different but still relevant and can be compared.

Some people seem to spend a lot of their time hiding away and furtively looking over their shoulders, you can spot them by the nervous twitch. ;)
 

Dave Moore

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Would be interested to hear people's views on this, especially interested to see if the views align with other views on C19/Lockdown/Vaccination etc.

So are you pro or against? Why?
Before we are finished everybody will have a chip in their wrist. They are already being used for opening doors in some buildings. Cashless society (on the way) , simple flash your wrist and pay for it. Waving to your friends in Tesco might buy you a full aisle of goods though. Everything will end up on this chip. Vaccine passport, passport, driving licence, all your health records, the list goes on. I think this will happen quicker than most people realise but it’s going to happen. If you don’t have the gene therapy( it’s not a vaccine) , you will be made a social leper. God help those that can’t have the vaccine due to medical reasons, no problem as long as they ring a bell to warn you they are coming your way.
 

Trainee neophyte

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Not really, no.
I quite understand that all vaccines must be tested, and tested on children, but how does a six years old give informed consent? How does any parent offer up their child for medical experimentation? Some obviously do, for the betterment of humanity. A brave choice, especially as the risk is non-zero. I stand by my statement that it is a question of morality. Everyone gets to make their own choice as to where the moral high ground lies. However, there is a lot of pressure here to force people into medical procedures for the benefit of everyone else. In other words, the ends justify the means.

Would enforced vaccination of the entire population be a good thing for the entire population? Probably. Are you comfortable with forcing people to be vaccinated against their will (and coercion is still force)? Just because force gives the right solution in this case, it is still force. One of my favourite quotes is "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent ".

Do you really want to live in a world where the government (famous for their competence, honesty and upright morality) gain the right to force medical procedures without consent? Once gained, they will never give it up. A slippery slope, which
could lead anywhere - perhaps even to forced euthanasia of those deemed "surplus to requirements"? Who knows where the future will lead.

I would prefer to live in a world where people are free to act as they choose, because then no one is dictating to me how I must act. Simple, straightforward self interest. You want someone to take a vaccine? Convince them that it is a good idea, and they will be fully on board. Force them and they will hate you forever, and there may well be consequences.
 

Rorschach

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Employer says, "to work in my company you need to provide proof of vaccination, that is part of our terms and conditions", prospective employee has the right to choose and if he decides not to be vaccinated the offer is withdrawn because he doesn't meet the required criteria and he goes elsewhere. No-one forces him or her to do the job, he has made the choice.
There is another side to this as the employer has a legal responsibility to protect his employees and provide safe working conditions by employing non vaccinated people he is arguably risking prosecution if one of his vaccinated staff members catches the virus and becomes seriously ill because of it.
In a blame society with no win no fee lawyers tell me that can't happen and I won't believe you.

There are many jobs where it is mandatory to provide detailed information, the very people who are on the front line of this pandemic are a case in point and would anyone here want their children to be looked after by anyone who hasn't been thoroughly vetted and cleared to work with juveniles? A bit different but still relevant and can be compared.

Some people seem to spend a lot of their time hiding away and furtively looking over their shoulders, you can spot them by the nervous twitch. ;)
For certain jobs I can understand that, just like I understand you need certain checks for working with kids etc (I have been checked for that in the past). Employers are going to have a hard time bringing in mandatory vaccination though if it was never on their contracts before now. They will have to justify to a court why they never imposed it for the myriad of infectious diseases that are far more deadly than C19, but now want to impose it for a disease that will have high herd immunity and very low mortality. I think that might be a tough call and it only takes one case of discrimination to be successful and the whole system will fall apart. Let's face it, proving discrimination is very easy these days.
 

Rorschach

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Worth considering as well is whether any form of coercion will actually decrease the numbers taking up the vaccine.

I have said before I am undecided whether I will take it or not, I'd like to wait and see a bit longer before making my decision, we are only a couple of months into this after all.
If the vaccine were made mandatory I would absolutely refuse to take it on principle, no matter how safe/effective it might be, and the same goes if there are extreme coercion tactics used. I think it would be a massive own goal for the government to use these kinds of tactics because I know for certain I won't be alone in refusing to have anything that is made mandatory/coercive. Lower up take could then have a detrimental effect on efficacy as whole.
A study published today showed that 95%+ of the population were willing to be vaccinated, more than 10% greater than the government were expecting (and based their modelling on). I think they should be grateful for that kind of up take and not shoot themselves in the foot with authoritarian behaviour.

Imagine as well those key workers such as supermarket staff, forced to work for a year under pandemic conditions, no priority status for vaccination and suddenly being told it's not safe to go into your own place of work unless you are forcibly vaccinated. Not going to go down well is it? There is already going to be another age divide argument as the vaccinated elderly are given special allowance for holidays abroad meanwhile the young who have sacrificed so much to keep those elderly people safe are either barred from travel or simply can't afford it due to economic hardship.
 

Droogs

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Perhaps from the lessons learned of this pandemic, It may become mandatory to be vaccinated against all diseases for which we have a vaccine and you will not be allowed to apply for work or even leave the country without an up to date code on the bio-metric chip in your nice new blue/black passport. Which will be a mandatory item to be on your person at all times, so an ID card you will pay for the privillage of having to carry and in order to access any state welfare you will need this. Welcome to life under the 👢 in the Disunited kingdom of Gattacca
 

Rorschach

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Perhaps from the lessons learned of this pandemic, It may become mandatory to be vaccinated against all diseases for which we have a vaccine and you will not be allowed to apply for work or even leave the country without an up to date code on the bio-metric chip in your nice new blue/black passport. Which will be a mandatory item to be on your person at all times, so an ID card you will pay for the privillage of having to carry and in order to access any state welfare you will need this. Welcome to life under the 👢 in the Disunited kingdom of Gattacca
Woah, wait, are we going to agree on something? Are are you just being sarcastic?
 

Droogs

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Both, I still feel if we have a vaccine then take it but also no one should be forced to do so.
 

Anthraquinone

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Compulsory vaccination would not be new in the UK it has been done before and with a vaccine that had virtually no testing in terms that we would understand.

If people refuse vaccination for some twisted belief and potentially put others at risk then they should not be upset if they have problems getting a job or leaving the country etc etc.

Finally why do people get thier knickers in a twist about their medical history being sacrosanct. I have never understood that anymore than keeping their salaries secret neither make sense for the vast majority of the population.
 

FatmanG

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I don't see that any secure medical info is being exposed by proving you had the jab. That is just hyper picky wording to make a point.

What worries me is the 20%+ who are refusing to have the jab. That is a large enough proportion of people to cause another huge infection with its many attendant deaths. Vaccine passports...hell YES !

I have come to believe that we should insist on vaccination for all and that those who still will not comply lose jobs, access to shops, cinema, football etc etc. Draconian I know but I have had 3 dead relatives, 2 more in hospital for more than 10 weeks. The cause being the uncaring deniers, the ignorant and the stupidly selfish who visited this disease upon my relatives. If required people should be forced to have the jab there can be no valid reason to refuse it.
I have come to believe that anyone related to any person who has been seen by the NHS for anything covid related should lose jobs,cinema, football etc etc. Draconian I know but I have relatives who cannot see a doctor,get surgery also grandparents that cannot see their children for nearly 12 months. The cause being these uncaring, ignorant and stupidly selfish people have overwhelmed the NHS put the medical professionals and their families at risk and crushed normal society for simply breathing oxygen into their lungs.

Your last and my 1st paragraphs are totally ridiculous and by the way forced vaccination is a human right violation. Shaping society to make it impossible to survive without being vaccinated is even worse. History is littered with medical mistakes done in the name of progress. Pregnant women given medication that left their babies deformed, haemophiliac blood transfusions infecting them with HIV the list is endless.
 

Snettymakes

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A general problem I have with most political conversations, is when people say "we shouldn't do A because XYZ may happen". As I rarely see anybody providing solutions for XYZ, it leads me to believe that XYZ have been brought up to support the argument against A, rather than actually forming the basis of their belief that we shouldn't do A.

Most things have side effects, solve the side effects, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
 

Rorschach

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A general problem I have with most political conversations, is when people say "we shouldn't do A because XYZ may happen". As I rarely see anybody providing solutions for XYZ, it leads me to believe that XYZ have been brought up to support the argument against A, rather than actually forming the basis of their belief that we shouldn't do A.

Most things have side effects, solve the side effects, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
How do you solve the side effects of a vaccine passport then? Given that the side effects are discrimination and the further erosion of our civil liberties?
 

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