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Vaccine Passports (domestic).

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Rorschach

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Would be interested to hear people's views on this, especially interested to see if the views align with other views on C19/Lockdown/Vaccination etc.

So are you pro or against? Why?
 

paulrbarnard

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Domestically it is pointless and probably unenforceable. once vaccine is widely available to everyone, which seems to be mid this year, then the assumption should simply be that everyone has had it. If people chose not to thats their choice.
I doubt government, any of them, could get a system in place that would be viable anyway. Look at the fiasco of track and trace in the first wave.
I would welcome it to avoid quarantine internationally.
 

AES

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There already IS such a "passport". Issued by (or designed by) - I think - the W.H.O; - it's a little yellow booklet (the first ones were green I seem to remember).

I had one for my international travels LONG before we'd ever heard of Covid. In my case it was issued by whomever did my first "international" jab (I think it was British Caledonian Airways at Gatwick in the early 1970's, which shows how long ago it was). It contains a page each for all sorts of "international" jabs such as Typhoid, Yellow Fever, Hepatitus B, etc, etc, and interestingly, also a page for anti Tetanus.

That last applies not only internationally but is commonly used inside a specific country for anyone who's had an injury where Tetanus poisoning is likely - not just dog bites. E.G I had a fall a while back and quite seriously injured my knees (very bloody anyway) and just to be sure, my GP asked to check my "little yellow book". Sure enough, my last anti-Tetanus was out of date by only a few months (it lasts 10 years) so I got another - in the "sit upon" as per usual! It HURTS!!!

My current "little yellow book" has just been updated to include the 2 Covid jabs I had in Jan and Feb (my wife's too, incidentally).

Personally I can't see why that can't be used for "domestic" purposes, as per my Tetanus example above - even though I don't think those little yellow books were designed for that purpose originally.

The point to remember is that the fact that you've been jabbed against anything is NOT proof that you can't catch whatever it is, NOR that you can't be carrying it, even though not affected/no symptoms yourself. In the case of my Covid jabs I understand from the data issued by the Swiss Govt, my Covid jab is about 95% "safe". BUT, as said, it doesn't mean 100% that I haven't got it/still can't get it.

So overall, I consider the little yellow book as a good, pretty certain indicator, but it's not 100%.

I overheard some politician on, I think BBC Radio 4, rabbiting on about issuing such "passports" as creating a two-level society (those who been jabbed and those who haven't). I've no idea which politician and which party, but I thought that his argument was utter bilge - as well as being a very short-term outlook (isn't everyone in UK who wants to be scheduled to be Covid-jabbed by end 2021)?

So personally I don't see that for those who don't already have their "little yellow book" they can't be issued by the injection "applier" along with the first Covid jab.

NOT trying to be at all "political" or trying to stir up any diatribe at all here, honestly - the above just seems so simple, obvious, easy and straightforward to me.

AND I do NOT want to get into any sort of debate (vitriolic or otherwise) as to whether or not Covid jabs - and/or lockdown, and/or whatever else - are a good idea or not! PLEASE.
 

Tris

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I think the level of organisation required will mean it is unlikely to happen. What that will mean for jobseekers when companies are looking at mandatory vaccination for new applicants remains to be seen.
 

Jameshow

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We have manditory seatbelts for those traveling in cars which saves 100's of lives.

No one says I'm not wearing one to a PC....

I cannot see why a vaccine passport cannot be introduced to save 1000's lives.

If you don't want one then don't fly / go to pubs etc.

Essential shops would be a another kettle of fish tbh.

Cheers James
 

Rorschach

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We have manditory seatbelts for those traveling in cars which saves 100's of lives.

No one says I'm not wearing one to a PC....

I cannot see why a vaccine passport cannot be introduced to save 1000's lives.

If you don't want one then don't fly / go to pubs etc.

Essential shops would be a another kettle of fish tbh.

Cheers James
Actually seatbelts are not really mandatory. Classic cars are exempt for example, as are buses, trains and some other transport. In cars the law says you must wear one (exceptions above) but you are not prevented from travelling in a car if you don't wear one, you are fined if you are caught, the key point there being if you are caught. People with medical exemptions are allowed to travel without a seatbelt. Wearing a seatbelt is also not an invasive medical procedure.
 

Jelly

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I'm broadly in favour, and like @AES have my little yellow book (which was once couriered to me in East Africa, after I forgot it, and realised that whilst they had let me in, border control wouldn't let me out of the country I was in without it).



But, if we go down this route, I believe there needs to be:
  • A vaccination program already under way which is open to the entire population,
  • A mechanism for people who have legitimate need (new job requires it, visit unwell relative, visit loved one in care home, travel for business) to get priority access, without a requirement to pay.
  • A robust mechanism for someone's GP to give people a certificate stating that they're exempt due to a genuine health risk (say history of vaccine reactions); and legislation which makes it clear that this is an acceptable alternative to the passport.
If those conditions aren't in place, it will likely end up driving additional unfairness towards those who have already been hit the hardest by COVID; which would not be something I would support.

If we do it, it has to be done right, or not at all.



I don't however buy the "it's people's right to choose" argument as a justification for not implementing vaccine passports.

I was brought up knowing that both acts and omissions have consequences.

So I don't find it unreasonable that if someone exercises their right to choose not to get vaccinated, then they need to accept that this will consequentialy limit their access to certain privileges (like visiting private property, obtaining employment, or traveling internationally).
 
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Snettymakes

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I don't however buy the "it's people's right to choose" argument as a justification for not implementing vaccine passports.

I was brought up knowing that both acts and omissions have consequences.

So I don't find it unreasonable that if someone exercises their right to choose not to get vaccinated, then they need to accept that this will consequentialy limit their access to certain privileges (like visiting private property, obtaining employment, or traveling internationally).
👆🏼 this
 

Lons

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Actually seatbelts are not really mandatory. Classic cars are exempt for example, as are buses, trains and some other transport. In cars the law says you must wear one (exceptions above) but you are not prevented from travelling in a car if you don't wear one, you are fined if you are caught, the key point there being if you are caught. People with medical exemptions are allowed to travel without a seatbelt. Wearing a seatbelt is also not an invasive medical procedure.
That's just a play on words, unless you have valid exemption it's mandatory that you wear seatbelts whilst travelling in any car that has them fitted, if a classic car has had them retrofitted then it's illegal not to wear them.
Not wearing seatbelts is not a valid choice and your statement (the key point there being if you are caught) might be fact but not something that should be suggested, it is breaking the law. It's illegal to steal, to hurt or kill people and a multitude of other actions and exactly the same statement can apply to those crimes, the fact there are consequences is irrelevant and while I'm sure you aren't deliberately encouraging anyone to break the law it's a somewhat stupid statement to make in the current topic of vaccines and certificates.
 

Terry - Somerset

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A big NO to vaccine passports for domestic purposes.
  • administratively costly, possibly complex and open to abuse
  • if individuals have the good sense to get themselves vaccinated their risk is very low
  • those who have not been vaccinated must take personal responsibility for their own actions
  • by late summer there will be effective herd immunity due to vaccine rollout and natural immunity
For international travel there may be a requirement and a standard certificate should be available from GP surgeries at a modest cost - eg: £10-25.

If employers quite reasonably require staff or new recruits to provide proof of vaccination this can be provided by GP.
 

Rorschach

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Rather worrying to read some of the responses here. 😬

What else should we put on it then? Flu Jab? Hepatitis? HIV status? MRSA carrier? Staphylococcus carrier?
 
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Geoff_S

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I got given a credit card sized preprinted card with my name, vaccine type, batch number and date received, and a space to put the date for my second jab. I can just put that in my wallet.

Will that do?
 

Selwyn

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I'd like to see the vulnerable all get a vaccine if they want.

The less vulnerable really shouldn't. We have immune systems so get them functioning. The vaccine may prevent other parts of our immune system acting optimally in due course.

I'm not anti vax.
 

Jelly

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Rather worrying to read some of the responses here. 😬

What else should we put on it then? Flu Jab? Hepatitis? HIV status? MRSA carrier? Staphylococcus carrier?
What's so scary?

In any case I think you'll find the Hepatitises are already on the WHO ICVP along with Typhoid, Yellow Fever, Cholera, Polio, Smallpox (now defunct), Meningococcal Meningitis, etc.
 

Rorschach

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What's so scary?

In any case I think you'll find the Hepatitises are already on the WHO ICVP along with Typhoid, Yellow Fever, Cholera, Polio, Smallpox (now defunct), Meningococcal Meningitis, etc.
So you would be happy with being forced to prove your vaccination for the others too just so you can buy a pint in the pub?
 

Sandyn

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Generally, I think they are no great benefit, very devisive and generally difficult to enforce. The rate at which the vaccination program is rolling out will mean they are unnecessary by the time anything secure and workable is introduced. You can be sure as soon as anything is introduced, you will be able to buy one on the internet for £20. The vaccinations are very effective, but not 100%, so there is always an element of risk with people with a passport.
There is no easy way out of where we are. I prefer to manage my own risk and take responsibility for myself, for example, I can't see myself getting on any flights for a long time yet.

I would rather see a test which I can have which measures my immune response to the vaccine. If it was a good response, I would be happy to mix with others knowing I was reasonably protected and not passing on anything to anyone else. I would still take sensible precautions.

I think I will be wearing a mask in winter/sanitizing when out in public from now on. I have had a flu/cold free winter.
 

Jelly

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So you would be happy with being forced to prove your vaccination for the others too just so you can buy a pint in the pub?
It really wouldn't bother me, it's not functionally any different to having to present Photo ID to get into some bars, or buy beer at the off-licence...

Which doesn't happen as frequently as it used to, but still often enough that it's an entirely normal part of life.
 

Rorschach

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It really wouldn't bother me, it's not functionally any different to having to present Photo ID to get into some bars, or buy beer at the off-licence...

Which doesn't happen as frequently as it used to, but still often enough that it's an entirely normal part of life.
Bit different to proving your age. You are revealing sensitive medical information about yourself which will almost certainly be recorded to track what you do.
 

Jelly

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Bit different to proving your age. You are revealing sensitive medical information about yourself which will almost certainly be recorded to track what you do.
It's not actually sensitive though.

Also, I'm not under any misapprehension that I don't already live in a quasi surveillance state where if the authorities chose to do so they could identify me in public, track my movements, intercept my communications, or access tax, employment, financial or medical records without my explicit consent or even neccicarily knowing...

That ship sailed a long time ago; and I'm fairly dull anyway, it's not like they'd discover anything interesting.
 
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