UK Future

[Digit]

The major problem with capitalism Bigshot is that we don't really have a workable alternative, as Devon says, inflation will like ease some of the problem.

Roy.

 

[BigShot]

Inflation destroys the money people have worked hard to save. It's like being taxed yet again.
Germany was a military superpower after hyperinflation because inflation crippled the country and paved the way for a dictator so awful that two subsequent generations have almost entirely stopped using his first name and stopped wearing a moustache like he wore. Inflation didn't solve their problems... it caused their problems and led to Hitler, WW2 and concentration camps.

The solution to national debt is allowing failing companies to fail, providing favourable conditions (employment law and taxation) for companies to set up here and letting capitalism work like it should. We can't do most of what we need to do without breaking EU rules so our only options are to wipe out savings with inflation, pray things don't get worse and continue trusting one of the most corrupt political regimes on the face of the planet to save us instead of just getting on with things ourselves.
It's not "Little Britain" - it's providing the conditions needed for the people on these islands to prosper in a way they cannot otherwise.


Digit - I don't think lack of a workable alternative is any sort of problem with capitalism. I think capitalism is FAR better than any conceivable alternative - the problem is interference with capitalism and failing to allow it to take its natural, self-correcting course by bailing out failing companies at the taxpayer's expense.

 

[Modernist]

The solution to national debt is allowing failing companies to fail, providing favourable conditions (employment law and taxation) for companies to set up here and letting capitalism work like it should. We can't do most of what we need to do without breaking EU rules so our only options are to wipe out savings with inflation, pray things don't get worse and continue trusting one of the most corrupt political regimes on the face of the planet to save us instead of just getting on with things ourselves.
It's not "Little Britain" - it's providing the conditions needed for the people on these islands to prosper in a way they cannot otherwise.


Digit - I don't think lack of a workable alternative is any sort of problem with capitalism. I think capitalism is FAR better than any conceivable alternative - the problem is interference with capitalism and failing to allow it to take its natural, self-correcting course by bailing out failing companies at the taxpayer's expense.

Before you get too carried away I suggest you take a look at the consequences of unfettered capitalism in the USA. A large underclass trapped in poverty, poor industrial efficiency, huge social division, sustained by the exploitation of finite natural resources, backed up by acquisition of more through serial warfare. I don't think their domestic financial position looks too rosy either and they have no record of imposing constructive change on the population who believe they are free.

 

[Digit]

You seem to have missed/ignored what I said Brian, I said that we lacked a workable alternative, I made no comment as how well or badly capitalism worked or where. Do you have a workable alternative?

Roy.

 

[Modernist]

You seem to have missed/ignored what I said Brian, I said that we lacked a workable alternative, I made no comment as how well or badly capitalism worked or where. Do you have a workable alternative?

Roy.

We don't need an alternative. Capitalism works well providing the excesses are controlled. What happened is that the controls were relaxed and inadequate leading to the present crisis.

 

[Jacob]

Inflation destroys the money people have worked hard to save. It's like being taxed yet again......

it also destroys the value of money not earned, or held in excess; stolen, bank bonus, drugs money, inherited, fraud, general exploitation and trickery etc. It also destroys the cost of debt.
Thoroughly good thing in principle as it is highly re-distributive.
Similar to the Monopoly money share out - it helps keep the game going.
It's inevitable anyway as Monopoly game "winners" find there is less and less to buy, and in any case the losers can't pay the rents. Extrapolate that to the real economy.

 

[Jacob]

You seem to have missed/ignored what I said Brian, I said that we lacked a workable alternative, I made no comment as how well or badly capitalism worked or where. Do you have a workable alternative?

Roy.

We don't need an alternative. Capitalism works well providing the excesses are controlled. What happened is that the controls were relaxed and inadequate leading to the present crisis.

Yes. Modern economies all have the working alternative in place i.e. various re-distributive systems starting mainly with taxation, even in the USA ,which has a very socialist history. (Thomas Paine et al).
The right wing myth is that this is some sort of emergency "nanny state" operation which wouldn't be necessary in a healthy economy/society. Complete nonsense, as history has shown over and over again

 

[devonwoody]

I was not suggesting inflation was the way to go, but pointing out that Germany is most probably not frightened knowing how it rises again from such a terrible thing.
If things are approaching armageddon on the continent I bet it would allow the same to happen.

 

[Sawyer]

The major problem with capitalism Bigshot is that we don't really have a workable alternative,.

The major problem with capitalism is that it fails humanity by causing global poverty, starvation and ceaseless wars.

'There is no alternative' was one of Thatcher's favorite lines that generations of propaganda from the capitalist class have persuaded people to believe.

There is a potential alternative, never properly tried, but it's controversial!

 

[Digit]

There is a potential alternative, never properly tried, but it's controversial!

Never one to be backward in coming forward I'll ask! Tells us what it is.

Brian, uncontrolled, most things have detrimental effects. But the Euro's one size fits all is demonstrably a failure, sticking plaster therapy is not likely to solve it's problems.

Roy.

 

[Modernist]

The introduction of the Euro was always part of a greater plan for an integrated Europe and was pushed in (too) early as it was the one thing that the public could see as most would be too apathetic to get involved in the more complex arguments.

Much of Europe is effectively more integrated on a day to day basis and is not seen as the monster it is buy our little islanders. Many of the intended benefits e.g. less likelihood of European war have been buried in squabbling about monsters in Brussels which they have fuelled by behaving like almost all politicians do i.e lining their own nests. (Incidentally this has had a hugely beneficial effect on the top end office furniture industry). Nevertheless it is the only practical balance to the power of the markets (lets not ask for any further definitions of that please) and we exclude ourselves at our future peril.

In the broader picture DC will duly be swept aside as the speck of insignificance that he is and history will roll on to some sort of compromise. What is currently at risk is our involvement in that future.

In the short term the only practical answer to the debts is inflation which will arrive as soon as the economy get up off it's knees fuelled by that need and the billions of unsubstantiated "easing" injected by the BOE, not to mention the attraction of the profits then available to the various "professionals". Within ten years we will be back on the unavoidable track with inflating house prices and the recession will just be another spike on the graph.

 

[Digit]

The idea that it is 'federation or fight' suggests to me that you pros are short of valid arguments in support of your dream
Croatia is now the 28th member of the EU, a country that was recently involved in the sectarian slaughter of it its neighbours.
EU membership has done nothing to unify Cyprus nor stop the attacks in Spain. I assume this arguement is based on the fact that our European neighbours can't be trusted out on their own without a fight breaking out. The EU president stated in words of one syllable that it was federation or WW3, tells us 'little Englanders' a great deal about our neighbours does it not?
And frankly I fail to see how federation would prevent a conflict, it didn't do so elsewhere.

Roy.

 

[Modernist]

I said "less likelihood" not prevent.

 

[Digit]

Thus you are saying that if the EU goes down the pan there is a 'liklihood' of conflict. Do you not see this as the best possible argument for us keeping well away from them? In recent years Europe has witnessed the mass slaughter of people simply because of their religion or ethnicity and and still has troops keeping the peace between them, and Clegg reckon that we are xenophobes! Ye Gods!
It is worth noting I think that the last Balkan conflict was between federal states!

Roy.

 

[Modernist]

Thus you are saying that if the EU goes down the pan there is a 'liklihood' of conflict. Do you not see this as the best possible argument for us keeping well away from them? In recent years Europe has witnessed the mass slaughter of people simply because of their religion or ethnicity and and still has troops keeping the peace between them, and Clegg reckon that we are xenophobes! Ye Gods!
It is worth noting I think that the last Balkan conflict was between federal states!

Roy.

Maybe it would restrain the UK's tendency to engage in unjust war to prop up failing politicians and lapdog to USA's previously detailed belligerent tendencies.

I thought one of the saddest interviews I saw recently was a legless US serviceman who said he hoped USA would remain active in warfare in order to provide him with an otherwise unavailable job.

What a wonderful world we have made for our children.

 

[Digit]

And which nations brought the last Balkans conflict to a halt Brian?

Roy.

 

[Sawyer]

There is a potential alternative, never properly tried, but it's controversial!

Never one to be backward in coming forward I'll ask! Tells us what it is.
Roy.

I suspect you've guessed already, but think Marx!
(Don't think Stalin, Mao &c, however, who deviated markedly from the original philosophy).

 

[Digit]

Whose maxim if I recall correctly is that 'to each according to his needs and from each the best he can give', or words to that effect. And that requires a change in human nature, the only places I know of where it has worked are the kibbutzim, elsewhere it always degenerated into a 'some animals are more equal than others,' situation, because it requires a change in human nature.

Roy.

 

[BigShot]

Before you get too carried away I suggest you take a look at the consequences of unfettered capitalism in the USA.

The USA has no such thing.
The government is bought and sold by big businesses (military, oil, pharma and agri especially), they are among the worst offenders in bailing out failing giants and generally a completely non-capitalist system.
Every comment I made about capitalism (as a system, not capitalist entities individually) here being meddled with applies equally or more so over there.

I don't think we want to get into a discussion about the effect of socialist legislation on job creation (minimum wage, employment taxes and so on) or the disastrous effect state education, medical legislation, social planning and so on have had on the poor of America. It's kinda off topic, but if you want to draw the problem of poverty in the USA as a criticism of "unfettered capitalism" when it's almost entirely down to other issues it must be responded to.


As we're getting to Marxism, it's time for me to step out. Quite apart from the hijackings that have gone on in the various revolutions, it's a reprehensible system which has far, far too many inherent problems to be considered a serious option. It worries me that so many people promote it apparently without seeing that.
I won't be drawn further on this though as it's a deeply technical and philosophical area and one in which I have no desire to debate.

...and yes, I have read Marx.

 

[Digit]

I have read Marx.

Often caused by sitting for too long on park benches I believe!

Roy.