UK Future

[BigShot]

Now I know I had all the vowels in there.
(Nicely done though.)

 

[Digit]

I do my best! 8)

Roy.

 

[Sawyer]

Whose maxim if I recall correctly is that 'to each according to his needs and from each the best he can give', or words to that effect. And that requires a change in human nature, the only places I know of where it has worked are the kibbutzim, elsewhere it always degenerated into a 'some animals are more equal than others,' situation, because it requires a change in human nature.

Roy.

Human nature is to co-operate for the common good: that's how we became the dominant species. It is also capable of change and evolution according to circumstances, which is why we are (I hope) a tad more civilised than two million years ago. We still have some way to go, however.

Kibbutzim appears to be a good example!

 

[Digit]

Human nature is to co-operate for the common good:

Tell me, did you miss all the recent wars?

which is why we are (I hope) a tad more civilised than two million years ago.

As an avid student of archaeology I can not see one shred of evidence in support of that statement.

Roy.

 

[devonwoody]

Now I know I had all the vowels in there.
(Nicely done though.)

it took me a few seconds to catch on to that one. :mrgreen:

 

[devonwoody]

Anyway, the crash looks like its coming.

I see there was a report that our government is making plans to repatriate British citizens back from Spain & Portugal should the Euro go t i ts up. (should be down I would have thought)

 

[Sawyer]

Human nature is to co-operate for the common good

Tell me, did you miss all the recent wars?

Point taken Roy; but wars are an inevitable consequence of global capitalism/imperialism.
Moreover, whilst wars themselves call for an exceptionally high level of human co-operation, a more tragic waste and abuse of that quality can scarcely be imagined.

which is why we are (I hope) a tad more civilised than two million years ago

As an avid student of archaeology I can not see one shred of evidence in support of that statement

Alright, I'll take the bait!! As woodworkers, surely we agree that furniture is civilised? I suspect archaeological evidence would support my own view that furniture has advanced somewhat over the last 2 million years.

Whether it has continued to advance over the past 50 is another question (and preferably another thread :!: ) :wink:

 

[Digit]

Look at this way Sawyer, if I start to agree with you how are we gonna spend the day? :lol:
You may know from some of my earlier prattlings that some time ago I had cancer, since then I take very little seriously, but I do enjoy a debate, preferably with someone whose views I disagree with, (difficult to have one with those you agree with! :lol: )
This is where me and you know who diverge, I like to hear other's opinions and respect their right to them without being insulted.
As to are we becoming more civilised, in general I think the movement is in that direction, the existance of the international court would suggest that.

Roy.

 

[coyot]

"We have become morally ill because we are used to saying one thing and thinking another...We have learned not to believe in anything, not to care about each other...Love, friendship, mercy, humility, or forgiveness have lost their depths and dimension...They represent some sort of psychological curiosity, or they appear as long-lost wanderers from faraway times.”

199?

to remember Czech anti-communist dissident, playwright and former president

Vaclav Havel

Oct 5th 1936 - Dec 18 2011


RIP

 

[Sawyer]

You may know from some of my earlier prattlings that some time ago I had cancer, Roy.

Wasn't aware of that, Roy and sincerely hope that you have it well and truly defeated.

 

[Digit]

That was 4 yrs ago Sawer so fingers crossed I'm in the clear, the point was that you look at things differently after that.
I took over a failing plant some years ago and was warned that on top of all its problems Tony, the shop steward, was a Trot and a member of the awkward squad.
I was on the shop floor one day and he started on me as a member of the management, he was beligerent and had a go at me about my rapid promotions, I pointed out that effort will aways rise to the top.
His reply was, 'so will scum!'
I'm not sure what response he expected but I thought it was a brilliant riposte and burst out laughing!
I got to know him quite well after that and not unaturally we discussed his politics, I could not agree with them, but I only found that out by listening to what he had to say of course.
It is difficult to hold a reasoned debate with someone who believes that anyone with a different view is a moron.

Roy.

 

[Lons]

we discussed his politics, I could not agree with them, but I only found that out by listening to what he had to say of course.
It is difficult to hold a reasoned debate with someone who believes that anyone with a different view is a moron. Roy.

=D> =D>

And the ONLY way anyone can have a balanced outlook Roy

=D> =D>

 

[Digit]

And the ONLY way anyone can have a balanced outlook Roy

Couldn't agree more.

Roy.

 

[Lons]

My Dad, bless him, was an intelligent man who wasted his life down the mines. He was however bigotted, blinkered and an unwavering dyed in the wool labour and union man as are so many in parts of the North East where they can elect monkeys (and have) into politics without effort.
He would listen to no one and always resorted to shouting down and bullying tactics as soon as he was losing an "argument", following which he would turn it on it's head.

We had a falling out when I refused to be bullied in to voting labour and would not reveal which party got my X on the ballot paper which enraged him as he realised he could no longer control my actions

Only in later life when he took up the mantle of union shop steward did he open his eyes and came to realise just how distorted the views of the general membership were and how easily the "sheep" (his words), were manipulated.

He was shattered when he began to accept how his attitude and beliefs had collapsed around him and spent his last years in remorse. He had emphysema from the mines and entitled to compensation. I had to handle his claim due to his illness and he couldn't believe the attitude of his beloved union in respect of his case.
They also insisted on a sizeable % of his potential award as a "voluntary" donation even though all legal costs were being paid by the government. When I queried this, I was told in no uncertain terms by the then local secretary of the union (now an MP) that should I transfer his case to another company, "his notes and all files would be mislaid". :shock: How bad is that? He wouldn't let me take it further and signed the forms. :evil:
The award of only £8000 was not paid until after his death and they succeeded in "appropriating" a sizeable chunk of that from my mother who at 70 really needed the money.

Don't get me wrong. He was a good father in most ways and life was difficult for him. Neither do I have any issues with trade unions or the labour party (Only with a couple of the uneducated idiots who were so easily elected to power).
Each has its place, it's individuals who use the system purely for their own benefit which irritates me.

Bob

 

[BigShot]

Wow.
Lons, I too have no issue with unions per se... though I find the British model for the unions somewhat poor in comparison with the more forward-thinking ones in other countries... but that story pushed even my jaded view of the unions further than it's been before. It was familiar stuff right up to the part where they gouged a lifetime, loyal member for a cut of his compensation... an utterly disgusting move.

 

[Digit]

I, in my time, have been a senior exec and a shop steward. The union fought a case for me and were very good to me.
Later, when I was on the opposite side of the table I was forced on more than one occasion to protect workers from vicious individuals who acted under the cloak of stewardship.
At the plant where I was an exec one of my best friends was works convenor, and many a lunchtime pint and debates we enjoyed.
But to use his phrase when on union business, those other meetings, 'never happened.'

Roy.

 

[BigShot]

I, in my time, have been a senior exec and a shop steward. The union fought a case for me and were very good to me.
Later, when I was on the opposite side of the table I was forced on more than one occasion to protect workers from vicious individuals who acted under the cloak of stewardship.
At the plant where I was an exec one of my best friends was works convenor, and many a lunchtime pint and debates we enjoyed.
But to use his phrase when on union business, those other meetings, 'never happened.'

Roy.

Digit - there are, of course, cases where unions fight cases for members - and when the member is in a more-than-rank-and-file position, or the issue is one with political/public implications they are pretty good at it too... but when you're just a lowly subs-payer things can be quite different.
I've seen union-members of decades-long standing be left utterly un-helped by their union when being hounded out of a job. It's only blind luck she managed to find a job in a different area before they managed to finish the process of sacking her due to a personal vendetta.
I'm not 100%, but I believe she is in Unison - not exactly a union that never does anything, but does seem somewhat inclined to the public song-and-dance and from what I've seen, somewhat less inclined to helping out someone in a normal job, with no union responsibility who was subject to some appalling treatment by management.

Nice to hear your mate could separate business from pleasure. I've known far too many union types who sounded like they were about to tell people to "down tools" in a social setting.

 

[Digit]

He made a hit with my wife by stating, 'I like Roy, he makes me look intelligent!' :lol:

Roy.

 

[BigShot]

Good one.
Make your next post a good one too... 8888 takes a LOT of typing to reach.