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Modernist

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Well the 80 or so little Englanders have finally got their way and forced the UK into a position of isolation from Europe.

This was done in the name of protecting the UK financial services industry which has so recently brought about the current recession by a government with no democratic mandate.

It must be obvious to all that the "markets" have the real power to influence our lives, not national governments, other than Germany, so the only possible way of restoring balance is to operate a single entity in Europe. Last nights events ensure the UK will be outside this.

This act of ignorant idiocy will only be portrayed as a success only by those whose view stretches no further than the rabid right wing press which fuels their opinions.

As the current wave of poverty proceeds and increases it will be too late to change when people finally wake up. The damage done will take generations to reverse.

In the meantime many, if not all, our European neighbours, will continue to enjoy increased prosperity and quality of life as they have done over recent decades, but, of course, most here will remain uninformed of that preferring to focus on distant memories of greatness.

If I was younger I would emigrate.
 

Jacob

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Agree. Madness.
We need something like the Leverson enquiry to look at the political side of the media.
 

tomatwark

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Modernist":2eciodf1 said:
Well the 80 or so little Englanders have finally got their way and forced the UK into a position of isolation from Europe.

This was done in the name of protecting the UK financial services industry which has so recently brought about the current recession by a government with no democratic mandate.

It must be obvious to all that the "markets" have the real power to influence our lives, not national governments, other than Germany, so the only possible way of restoring balance is to operate a single entity in Europe. Last nights events ensure the UK will be outside this.

This act of ignorant idiocy will only be portrayed as a success only by those whose view stretches no further than the rabid right wing press which fuels their opinions.

As the current wave of poverty proceeds and increases it will be too late to change when people finally wake up. The damage done will take generations to reverse.

In the meantime many, if not all, our European neighbours, will continue to enjoy increased prosperity and quality of life as they have done over recent decades, but, of course, most here will remain uninformed of that preferring to focus on distant memories of greatness.

If I was younger I would emigrate.

While I agreed with a lot of what you are saying, I think it will depend on if the Euro survives or fails.

Cameron has thrown the dice and we will have to wait and see.

But I do think a lot of what Cameron has done has been done to avoid a referendum on Europe.

The big problem he has created is that if he is proved wrong it is going to cost us a lot in money and power to sort this out.

But that is what we get for having a government run by a millionaires who were born with silver spoons and their mouths and do not know the meaning of being hard up, or having to work for a living.

Living in Scotland I have always been against independence as I am not sure the figures add up but I am now being to wonder, and if Alex Salmond had a referendum in say 6 months or so he might just swing it.



Tom
 

Paul Chapman

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Modernist":2hbuk25f said:
In the meantime many, if not all, our European neighbours, will continue to enjoy increased prosperity and quality of life as they have done over recent decades
I doubt it very much. The Euro project was flawed from the outset. IMHO the single currency will eventually have to be unpicked and member-countries of the Euro will return to national currencies. Doubt that we will agree, however. Just have to wait and see who is right :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul
 

RogerS

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I tend to listen to my wife on these sorts of things as she remains, despite my best endeavours, a very bright and apolitical person. Her view is that David Cameron did the right thing because what Merkel and Sarkozy are proposing (a) won't help the Euro and the economic situation in the short term (b) that their proposals are going to take at least five years to put into place and (c) because Britain is not participating that they will end up revisiting the 'deal'.

As I say, she leaves chips-on-shoulders and prejudiced viewpoints out of the equation.

Time will tell.
 

Digit

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This was done in the name of protecting the UK financial services industry which has so recently brought about the current recession by a government with no democratic mandate.
Please define 'Democratic Mandate' and explain how that applies to current situation in Greece, Italy and attempts to create fiscal unioun without said mandate from European electorate.

Roy.
 

RogerS

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You're wasting your time, Roy. You know how the Left twist things when they don't get their own way. Reminds me of this cartoon

 

chipmunk

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Hi Roger,
So you don't think that Roy "twisted" comments about Cameron's democratic mandate into a poke at the democratic mandates of the Greek and Italian prime ministers then ;-)

Jon
 

chipmunk

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Not just to be provocative but I admit it is tempting on that score too ;-)

....but I think if we take the "friend in need" proverb seriously and were to look to Britains true long term interest I think that there are very much worse times to join the Euro than right now. Seems crazy but I think it's true.

There's no doubt in my mind that the Euro will survive - it's in ours and everyone else's interests that it does.

I also believe that there will be a two-speed Europe and we'll be in the slow lane with a distinct lack of influence over decisions that will affect us unless we're prepared to do something.

I know this will not be popular but it is my firmly held opinion.
Jon
 

Modernist

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Paul Chapman":u2ykx110 said:
Modernist":u2ykx110 said:
In the meantime many, if not all, our European neighbours, will continue to enjoy increased prosperity and quality of life as they have done over recent decades
I doubt it very much. The Euro project was flawed from the outset. IMHO the single currency will eventually have to be unpicked and member-countries of the Euro will return to national currencies. Doubt that we will agree, however. Just have to wait and see who is right :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul
Actually I agree the Euro was fatally flawed from the outset (and said so at the time) as there was no mechanism to adjust for different economies. Interestingly I think one of the most likely reasons for failure, should it occur, is that many Germans are understandably fed up with funding the rest of Europe, especially after the colossal cost of re-integrating the former East Germany.

Nevertheless, having not only allowed but positively encouraged industrial and financial globalisation over recent decades this is the inevitable consequence and one or the other has to give. We suffer from delusions of world relevance in the UK fostered by the press and successive governments. We are a small island off Europe with a pitiful manufacturing base and "wide boy" financial sector which is a social pariah. It does indeed pump wealth into the economy but the proportion is only as high as it is owing to the paucity of manufacturing.

Please define 'Democratic Mandate' and explain how that applies to current situation in Greece, Italy and attempts to create fiscal unioun without said mandate from European electorate.

Roy.
The political changes in Greece and Italy were brought about by local elections. I don't have the % to hand but it would be difficult to be less than the UK with a minority Tory group supported (so far) by the Lib Dems.

We are still at the stage of negotiating a possible solution. I agree that should be tested by a referendum or general election (preferably the latter), although it may follow on anyway.

While I agreed with a lot of what you are saying, I think it will depend on if the Euro survives or fails.

Cameron has thrown the dice and we will have to wait and see.

But I do think a lot of what Cameron has done has been done to avoid a referendum on Europe.

The big problem he has created is that if he is proved wrong it is going to cost us a lot in money and power to sort this out.

But that is what we get for having a government run by a millionaires who were born with silver spoons and their mouths and do not know the meaning of being hard up, or having to work for a living.

Living in Scotland I have always been against independence as I am not sure the figures add up but I am now being to wonder, and if Alex Salmond had a referendum in say 6 months or so he might just swing it.

Tom
I think part of the problem is that Cameron is too weak to withstand his own right wing (unlike all his predecessors who have avoided this position owing to the obvious economic consequences), not to mention his cultural and financial background. He canvassed for the election without any clear policy or philosophy and has continued so in office.

The problem now is that, as you say, he has placed us in a position of great risk, and whilst his departure would be irrelevant I would like to see the country survive.

I share your view on the Tartan Tories and doubt if they would have made such progress in the absence of North Sea oil. I think the Scots are right to be aggrieved attheir treatment from Westminster but at least it is a Tory free zone. Maybe as a Mackenzie I should emigrate there.
 

Digit

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The political changes in Greece and Italy were brought about by local elections.
If so then I am in error for as far as I recall Greece at least has a cabinet of totally unelected reps.
As regards mandates I would observe that Mrs merkel is head of a coalition government and thus has precisely the same mandate as HMG.
I would also point out that HMG was not alone in the result as published this morning.
Brit banks were also not alone in their reprehensible banking activities, but as regards the City, we have people screaming that Bombardier has not been defended then complaining that the City is!
The City apparently, for all its faults, contributes more to the exchequer than our now much reduced manufacturing base! Worth defending?

Roy.
 

Modernist

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Digit":3j7qgwbw said:
The political changes in Greece and Italy were brought about by local elections.
If so then I am in error for as far as I recall Greece at least has a cabinet of totally unelected reps.
As regards mandates I would observe that Mrs merkel is head of a coalition government and thus has precisely the same mandate as HMG.
I would also point out that HMG was not alone in the result as published this morning.
Brit banks were also not alone in their reprehensible banking activities, but as regards the City, we have people screaming that Bombardier has not been defended then complaining that the City is!
The City apparently, for all its faults, contributes more to the exchequer than our now much reduced manufacturing base! Worth defending?

Roy.
I stand corrected but they did vote in parliament for the present arrangement, presumably from elected MP's. A new full election is planned for the spring.

>>On 4 November, 2011 there was a vote of confidence in the parliament, which was narrowly won by the government of George Papandreou by a vote of 153 to 145 in the 300-seat body.[11] Another vote of confidence is set for 4 November 2011,[12] and though a number of Panhellenic Socialist Movement MPs have said they will not support the government in the vote of confidence,[12] all 152 PASOK MPs supported the government,[13] but only because Papandreou has agreed to step down as Prime Minister in order for a government of national unity to take over[13]. Following the vote of confidence one previously expelled PASOK member was re-admitted to the party, raising the Papandreou majority to 153 seats.<<
 

Digit

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Yep! And as I understand the the German and French position they will continue with their fiscal plans whether they recieve the support they wish or not.
Their plans seems to ignore the fact that a new treaty, as demanded by Merkel, will require ratification in the Bundestag in accordance with the German federal constitution, yet she claims that ratification within the 17 will not be required.
Democracy ssems to be rather like the Euro, dying!

Roy.
 

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RogerS":252htnrw said:
I tend to listen to my wife on these sorts of things as she remains, despite my best endeavours, a very bright and apolitical person. Her view is that David Cameron did the right thing because what Merkel and Sarkozy are proposing (a) won't help the Euro and the economic situation in the short term (b) that their proposals are going to take at least five years to put into place and (c) because Britain is not participating that they will end up revisiting the 'deal'.

As I say, she leaves chips-on-shoulders and prejudiced viewpoints out of the equation.

Time will tell.
I think your Mrs has something here Rog but I also tend to agree with Paul C that the euro may probably need to be un-picked in the future. I heard a comment this morning to the effect that if Major had got us into the euro system in the first place, the UK may have been able to exercise some measure of control over those 'wayward' (if that's the right term) countries that were overstretching themselves. It didn't happen though and so we now find ourselves in the position that we're in. I can't really decide whether it's a good or bad thing, but as we've all said...time will tell

Edit - I also heard a commentator mention that whatever plan the French and Germans had cooked up was going to be bad for the UK whichever way it was sliced, so maybe Cameron did the right thing?... :duno: - Rob
 

Modernist

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Digit":gmwc4gwc said:
Yep! And as I understand the the German and French position they will continue with their fiscal plans whether they recieve the support they wish or not.
Their plans seems to ignore the fact that a new treaty, as demanded by Merkel, will require ratification in the Bundestag in accordance with the German federal constitution, yet she claims that ratification within the 17 will not be required.
Democracy ssems to be rather like the Euro, dying!

Roy.
But where is the democracy in being run by the markets?
 

Digit

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Two wrongs don't make a right Brian, also if goverments didn't get themselves into hock the banks would not have any influence. Also as was pointed out to me on this forum some weeks ago vis-a-vis Germany leaning on Greece to stop the referendum, banks always stipulate the rules when you go cap in hand to them, 'he who pays the piper calls the tune.'
Would you lend your money without stipulating conditions? Remember this, when banks in this country bail out Greece it's your money that they are lending.

Roy.
 

Modernist

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Digit":18l32yyn said:
Two wrongs don't make a right Brian, also if goverments didn't get themselves into hock the banks would not have any influence. Also as was pointed out to me on this forum some weeks ago vis-a-vis Germany leaning on Greece to stop the referendum, banks always stipulate the rules when you go cap in hand to them, 'he who pays the piper calls the tune.'
Would you lend your money without stipulating conditions? Remember this, when banks in this country bail out Greece it's your money that they are lending.

Roy.
I agree but we are unlikely not to need to borrow in the foreseeable future. It is still the case that for the Euro to live in the real world with the various states, dollar, yen etc then it needs to be consolidated.
 

Digit

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That may be so Brian but personally I doubt that it can be made to work.
The value of the Euro was established at a level that should, had not some governments cooked their books, enabled all participant states to function. The outcome was a value that set Germany's exports, so those who are supposed to know tell me, at a level that is some 25% below true value and the PIGS exports at ruinoously high levels.
Without permanent subsidies to the PIGS, how do you suggest the Euro zone can continue?
We have a similar situation here where Wales is permanently in hock to Westminster and the English tax payers.

Roy.
 

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woodbloke":uh7sai1g said:
..... the UK may have been able to exercise some measure of control over those 'wayward' (if that's the right term) countries that were overstretching themselves.....- Rob
Mmmm...not so sure about that. Why would they listen to us if they didn't listen to anyone else? From the little I can gather, nobody in the Euro looked that closely at the Govt books for Greece when they joined up. Otherwise they might just have realised that Greece went into the Euro with the awful state of their 'books' well hidden.

Did anyone see the spoof on the Greeks that Dara O Briain did on Mock the Week ? Uncomfortably near the mark.
 
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