trimming using templates with router advice please !

[mac1012]

Hi i am again looking into using templates for my rocking horse rockers and i got some advice from you guys a while ago

i have very limited experince of routering , my questions are thus , i was trying to decided between two methods of doing this

1 making a template and trimming the rockers using a palm router with the work piece clamped down or using a router table and trimming the rockers .

i was wondering if any of you guys had any experince in either of these methods and if in respect of using the router table if you can do stuff like that on it, i know you can trim to a template on a router but with the rockers being a irregular shape i would have to do them with just the router bit exposed and no fence ? is this a viable option or is it not possible to carry out suff like this on a router table ? as i will be trimming right round the whole of the rocker

hope that makes sense any input would be gratefull

thanks mark

 

[Racers]

Hi, Mark

If you are only doing a pair how about a spoke shave? seems silly to spend ages making a template for a couple of rockers.

A bearing guided bit and a starting pin on your router table would be the other way.

Pete

 

[Louise-Paisley]

I created mdf templates to cut rim parts for the cat wheels, MDF being particularly easy to take back to a fine pencil line makes it ideal IMO..

To cut the parts I mark them out using the template and jigsaw about 2mm outside the line roughly, then using double sided carpet tape (burnish well on the mdf template so it sticks to that hardest) I just position on the blank and press it in place by hand which is plenty strong enough to route it down to size without the template moving.

The routing down is MUCH easier on the router table with a bottom bearing bit (template is on top of the work piece), Each rim part takes but a few seconds to whizz round on the table.

Just for your information I use this bit (As recommended by someone here) http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Onl ... m_270.html which is I have to say a VERY good cutter with replaceable blades and double bearing. The advantage of the double bearing being if you need to flip the piece over to prevent tearout you can simply raise the bit in the table and track the bearing on the bottom so the template does not have to be removed to cut from both directions. And of course the new blades are very much cheaper than a new cutter

 

[Louise-Paisley]

The advantage with a table is it is much easier to keep the work flat on the table than it is to keep a router flat on the work - up to a size limit of course, if you are working on large bits then it will likely become easier to move the router than the work.

The rim parts I am making are about 30 inches long by 3 inches wide and very easy, but I have used a bearing guided roundover in the table to work a complete wheel rim which is 53" diameter - I had a saw horse the same height as the table for extra support and it worked fine.

 

[custard]

The routing down is MUCH easier on the router table with a bottom bearing bit

I completely agree...as long as you've used a router table and a bottom bearing bit three or four times before!

But the first few times you try it you'll likely have problems "leading in" and "leading off", in other words the first and last moments when you're actually cutting. To get around this you need lead in and lead off blocks attached to your template, or a router table with a pin located near the cutter to act as a bearing point.

The next problem you'll encounter is when you inadvertantly lose contact with the template half way through the cut (and, trust me here, in the early days you'll do this a lot!), your instinct will be restart at the point you left...but your instinct would be wrong! If you lose contact with the template then restart at the very beginning with the lead in block.

Then you've got to find a comfortable feed speed, one that neither burns nor chips your workpiece.

And of course you'll need to know how much extra to leave for the routing when you rough cut the workpiece.

The moral of the story is that template routing on a router table is a fantastic skill to acquire, but it is a skill and it does have a learning curve. As you emphasised your inexperience with a router I'd suggest a number of practise goes first, or alternatively settle down to a pleasurable twenty minutes work with a well fettled spokeshave.

 

[Louise-Paisley]

But the first few times you try it you'll likely have problems "leading in" and "leading off", in other words the first and last moments when you're actually cutting. To get around this you need lead in and lead off blocks attached to your template, or a router table with a pin located near the cutter to act as a bearing point.

The next problem you'll encounter is when you inadvertantly lose contact with the template half way through the cut (and, trust me here, in the early days you'll do this a lot!), your instinct will be restart at the point you left...but your instinct would be wrong! If you lose contact with the template then restart at the very beginning with the lead in block.

Interesting..

I have seen several video's using a start pin and advising you do so, my crap table has no facility for one so I didn't use one. Also because I am trimming the entire outline I do not have a lead in on the template.

But I have had absolutely no problems not having either start method at all, not even on the very first attempt, which left me a bit puzzled as to why these start methods seem to be pushed as almost essential. I am only working with thin materials (18 to 22mm mdf & ply) and when I rough cut the blanks I only leave about 2mm of waste to trim, is this the reason I have not encountered any problems starting? It would be helpful to know if there is some condition that is going to present problems in the future otherwise I am likely to assume everything is easy as it appears to be at the moment.

Also the restarting from the beginning again if you stop the cut.. As I said I do not have a lead in on my templates so there really is no start point other that the point I decide to start with LOL Which is normally about an inch past a corner, I do stop the cut mostly as I pass a corner, I then reposition my hands and start again about an inch before the corner and go round it. I have also stopped at other points when I have felt hand positioning is not comfortable or getting too close to the bit etc and when I do I simply restart from a few inches back which has not created any problems that I can see - there is no evidence I can detect to indicate a restart has taken place on the finished piece.

The restart idea seems a bit counter intuitive to me, given that the bearing guided cutter removes the wood back to the template it seems to me that once this is done then the cutter blades would not even make contact with the wood when restarting on a part where it has already been trimmed.

I am not saying you are talking tripe as I have a very limited experience with template trimming as I said above and there are lots of places where I have seen the same or very similar advice, but I have also seen demo's where especially the restart has been done by simply going back a couple of inches not back to the start point - The Router Workshop Shows being one such source, and a few times on that show they have said "I will use the start pin for safety as we do not have a lead in on the template" and then proceeded to start without the wood being in contact with the pin at all LOL

Would it be possible for you to expand on the advice and give some details of WHY you need to start at the beginning after a pause and why a lead in/ start pin is needed or what conditions make these things more necessary than they appear to be to me?

By the way, I assumed the OP was intending to make multiple rocking horses not one, if it is just the one then I also think the time involved in making an accurate template would probably be better spent making an accurate finished rocker.

 

[mac1012]

Thanks guys for info and louise very helpfull thank you i understood everything you were saying and thought iwas doing well until i got to the double bearing flipping over and being able to cut both ways ! not sure i understand that bit but everything else thank you !!

i make the horses on a regular basis so this is what i am looking for to speed up the production process i have mastered a scroll saw and pretty much got the hand of a bandsaw i use reguarly so this is the next challenge !!

i been looking at videos on you tube with people free styling with a starting pin on router table and i have been thinking of making the templates out of mdf louise what thickness mdf did you use ?? i worked out earlier that you trim the pieces to trim with router i think it well help me as they are bit trickey to finish after scoll sawing as internal and external radius that not always easy to finish and the template methon would ensure each one is exactly the same also i gonna do same with other pieces like lege were the finished sizes are quite critical , i guess i will have to make sure the templates are pretty much spot on at least making them from mdf means it easily workable to get right sizes

now for deciding on a router and table any feed back on what you got would be helpfull i guess i dont want an all singing all dancing router as budget is tight having already brought two machines this year but i have to see what you guys reccomend

oh one other thing louise i assume bottom bearing means bottom of cutter so when on table will be at top pressing on template ?? with template on top of work piece ?

thanks for help !!

mark

 

[custard]

You're absolutely right, mea culpa, for multiple rockers a router template is the only way to go.

I congratulate you if you've managed without lead in/out blocks or a starting pin, it shows a very deft touch. Personally I've been using templates since the Elu 96 was considered a novelty and I find them very useful...maybe I'm over influenced by spindle moulder practises (which is what I generally use) where the risk of scorching and kick back is that bit more severe.

 

[Louise-Paisley]

Yes bottom bearing means bottom of the bit as fitted in a plunge router, in a table it is obviously at the top..

The double bearing...

Having a bearing top and bottom you can start off cutting with the template on the top, but if you are cutting a curve then part of the cut will be down grain, and part up grain, when coming back up grain (I think) there could be a tendency for breakout. if this is the case with the double bearing you can raise the bit so the top bearing (which is at the bottom when in a table) is exposed and you flip the work piece over. Now you have your template on the table surface with the piece on top of it and your second bearing is now running on the template - now you can cut in the opposite direction and be cutting down grain without climb cutting.

I know what I am saying but I do realise its unlikely anyone will be able to understand me, so if someone with a better grasp of the language wants to dive in and help out please feel free

 

[Louise-Paisley]

You're absolutely right, mea culpa, for multiple rockers a router template is the only way to go.

I congratulate you if you've managed without lead in/out blocks or a starting pin, it shows a very deft touch. Personally I've been using templates since the Elu 96 was considered a novelty and I find them very useful...maybe I'm over influenced by spindle moulder practises (which is what I generally use) where the risk of scorching and kick back is that bit more severe.

Well I don't know about deft touch - could likely be complete beginners luck I expect!

I did have one nasty kick when I inadvertently tried to climb cut start, I still need to think hard about direction especially on internal cuts, I don't know if a start pin would have helped there?

I guess with experience I will come across the situations where these things come into play and just hope it is not with disastrous consequences!

 

[Louise-Paisley]

Oh, I use 12mm mdf for the templates, I would think 6mm would be ample but I have plenty of 12mm kicking about and I guess a bit to0 strong is better than a bit too weak.

As for tables.. I am just going to make one, basically just a table with a hole in it and a plunge router mounted under it. It will be a little bit more than that but not much. For fences etc I will just make them up from bits of timber and clamp them in place where needed, the table its self does not really need to be an all singing all dancing fancy thing with t lots and gadgets & gizmos.

It might be worth having a look at a few episodes of The router Workshop to give you an idea of what you can do with a very simple setup

 

[RogerBoyle]

I am not saying you are talking tripe as I have a very limited experience with template trimming as I said above and there are lots of places where I have seen the same or very similar advice, but I have also seen demo's where especially the restart has been done by simply going back a couple of inches not back to the start point - The Router Workshop Shows being one such source, and a few times on that show they have said "I will use the start pin for safety as we do not have a lead in on the template" and then proceeded to start without the wood being in contact with the pin at all LOL

Would it be possible for you to expand on the advice and give some details of WHY you need to start at the beginning after a pause and why a lead in/ start pin is needed or what conditions make these things more necessary than they appear to be to me?

By the way, I assumed the OP was intending to make multiple rocking horses not one, if it is just the one then I also think the time involved in making an accurate template would probably be better spent making an accurate finished rocker.

I'll answer that if i may
First off just because you have seen videos of folks not using a lead in pin does not make it right and As I do not know your level of experience forgive me for appearing to teach you to Suck eggs
I have been involved in all aspects of woodworking all my life I am now 49 and for me the two most dangerous tools for the hobbiest user are the router and the spindle Moulder
The router because of the complancey some folks get when using it in a table environment and the spindle moulder as they try and use it like another table router
There are plenty of documented cases where folks have got a bit complacent when using bearing guided trimmers on a table and at times have introduced the wood and template quicker and harder than they realise , the wood is then grabbed and thrown by the cutter and before you can stop it your hand/fingers have been moved and the cutter can bite them.... sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't when this happens..so far you have been lucky and may well be for years but there may well come a time when you are not..........

So if you wish to retain all your fingers and mobility of your hand I urge you to strongly fit a lead in pin
If your table does not have the facility to use a pin then its a simple affair to drill a hole to take a pin

HTH
Roger

 

[mac1012]

right ok louise i get what you mean i guess iwill have to explore some more info for knowing what is up and down grain i havent got any equipment so plenty of time well i guess things are obvious to you but for me top and bottom bearings relating to routering and then on the table is a learning curve for me !! :lol: i guess another option for me is using a palm router and having a toggle clamping work piece holding jig and just trim it that way but still using templates might be safer for me as all this talk of kick back and fingers lost is making me nervous !! lol i seen a palm router bosch on offer at screw fix for 100 pound but bad reviews on being able to adjust depth, another one is the trend palm router at axminster then i could just trim small amount off and get the hang of keeping square to work piece .

the cutter looks very good thanks for that info so i would need a router half inch ?? what would any of you guys recomend , as for tables i been looking at the dakota one thats showcased on here and dosent look bad for the money

i realise you have to be carefull with these machines i have a bandsaw and know how easy it is to get complacent i seen some videos that use a push pad when free routering on table.

Mark

 

[Louise-Paisley]

Roger.. My experience is limited, very, I have been woodworking for weeks not years so egg sucking lessons are welcome

I see the point in the pin, to prevent the worked being snatched, but as I said there has not been any hint of this happening but I am using thin(ish) board and the excess to trim is only about 2mm which I assume is the reason there has been no problems starting.

Fitting a pin is not entirely as simple as drilling a hole.. its a cheap crap table which is made from thin steel sheet, there would be nothing to keep the pin upright if you see my point.

I do plan to build a table at some point in the not to distant future and I will of course add the facility for a start pin in that.

I am not complacent with the table at all - my father lost his right arm when a machine was turned on unexpected so I have had the danger of machinery drilled into me my entire life. I do take care to ensure hands are behind the piece at all times and well away from the bit, if at any point they get closer than a foot I stop and re-position, at the moment everything I am working on is large enough I can do that, should I end up working smaller parts then I would make up some form of holder to keep distance between me and the bit - It scares the bejesus outa me!

I am not in any way contesting the advice already given, I am just asking under what conditions it is likely to be an issue because I have not encountered anything which even begins to look like a problem - At the moment, with the materials and cut depth I am doing. I am more than happy to learn by others experience rather than make the mistake myself

Mark..

That cutter is a half inch bit so would not work in a palm router which will be 1/4 inch.

You can of course trim with a palm or plunge router with a bearing guided bit (Or a guide bush for that matter) but it is IMO much easier on a table.

Handheld and table routing is a learning curve, the direction of cut alone takes some thinking about especially when you have external cuts and internal (inside a hole) which cut the opposite direction and thinking about direction when the wood is between you and the bit or the bit is between you and the wood, then using a table they are reversed again.. It took some doing to grasp it all, and I still have to think twice before starting to make sure, standing there waving a finger in circles and figuring it out before I turn it on LOL

I think with respect the table is a safe tool as are most power tools, but without respect most power tools are also very dangerous and that is not limited to the router table - The table saw scares me more than the router table truth be told. If you are really safety concious then you can knock up some quick jigs to hold the parts while you trim them on the table, these can either be the template (with the work toggle clamped on top of the template) or simply a clamping arrangement which holds the piece with the template attached so that you can keep hands even further from the bit.

If you plan on making lots of them then I do think a table would be a better option than a handheld, it certainly is for me having now tried both ways.

 

[como]

Louise, if you are unable to add a pin to your router table, an alternative method would be to clamp a triangular piece of wood to your table top and use the point of the triangle to guide your workpiece into the cutter. Just as you would with a fulcrum pin.

 

[Louise-Paisley]

Louise, if you are unable to add a pin to your router table, an alternative method would be to clamp a triangular piece of wood to your table top and use the point of the triangle to guide your workpiece into the cutter. Just as you would with a fulcrum pin.

Mmmm, yes that's a plan.. Still not entirely simple as the poxy table does not even have an overhang to get clamps in :roll: but I could do it from the back of the table I think.

Of course the answer would be to get on with making a new table rather than trying to make the best of a very bad job #-o