Traditional Drawer Construction (again!)

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Benchwayze":1spq46k4 said:
As far as I recall, slips were used in drawers that were light in construction; thinner linings. The principle was to provide a wider bearing surface to spread and minimise wear.
I might be wrong though. Wouldn't be the first time. (hammer)

John :)
I'm sure you are right. A slip saves a lot of timber. Trad design is about optimising the outcome - more from less. The fact that modernists hit on this and think its their own idea tends to obscure that trad vernacular design got there first, in fact never left. Modernism is ancient.
 
I think you are right about saving timber/cost. It also makes the joints quicker to cut.

Nevertheless thin sides make a more attractive drawer, much as thin glazing bars do a window.
 
Modernist":1fzvt0p8 said:
I think you are right about saving timber/cost. It also makes the joints quicker to cut.

Nevertheless thin sides make a more attractive drawer, much as thin glazing bars do a window.

Which is why I kept some solid 6mm quartered oak, salvaged from the top of a 'Utility wardrobe' from the 40s. Lovely stuff on top of what was essentially a plywood box!
The drawer sides were equally nice... and it all finds its way under our benches. Well under mine at least!

John :D
 
jimi43":c4awqvfv said:
I know this is going to sound strange but I like uneven, hand-cut and estimated dovetails...as per my original first picture.

I think it is a bit like Tudor architecture....it simply doesn't look right unless it's wonky!


Jim

You'd like my dovetails then Jim... Well, my woodwork overall! (hammer) :mrgreen:

John :D
 
Modernist":1ffjcmtm said:
Your point being?
Thin drawer sides...and these look to be around 6-8mm , together with a supposedly quite pleasant A&C piece don't necessarily mean that the jointwork is up to the same standard as the rest of the piece - Rob
 
woodbloke":3jdtvolh said:
Modernist":3jdtvolh said:
Your point being?
Thin drawer sides...and these look to be around 6-8mm , together with a supposedly quite pleasant A&C piece don't necessarily mean that the jointwork is up to the same standard as the rest of the piece - Rob

The piece does nothing for me either but it is a typical example of the genre and many were made to the highest standards of craftsmanship especially in the following 40-50 years from Waals, Barnsley's etc, producing such luminaries as Alan Peters in the process.
 
While quite enjoying the discussion about full size chests of drawers, let's not lose sight of the point that Jimi wants to make something "in miniature" and so what works full size will risk being too flimsy, if scaled down, or too clumsy if not scaled down!

I do think it's worth thinking about the runners. The sort of drawers in Jimi's opening photos would normally rest on runners which are joined across the front of the case. (Not sure what to call those bits; let's call them stretchers for now.) The stretchers define a rectangular hole for each drawer, and part of trad drawer making is to fit each drawer into its own hole.

If you slim down the runners to (say) 9mm, which would look ok on something the size of an engineer's chest, you get the problem of stub tenoning the stretchers into them. Possible, and I'm sure Jimi will have some nice hardwood to make them of, but significantly fiddly.

A solution to the problem is to eliminate the stretchers - as has been said already. Without stretchers you must hide the runners, which you can do by using runners in rebates - as in the picture Jacob showed - or by making the drawer fronts overlap them - as in Modernist's drawers.

I think what might help for more inspiration where small scale construction meets fine hand tool techniques would be to look at museum or collector's display cabinets. Pop into the coins and medals department, and you'll probably find more of interest in the cabinets than in the contents.

There's a good illustration of the sort of thing I mean in Ellis's Modern Practical Joinery on page 256.
 
woodbloke":13ltmsj6 said:
If Jacob is capable of reading, which frankly sometimes I doubt, Jimi stated that a traditionally made, top quality drawer was key to his wishes in this forthcoming project...not some commercial, mass produced, box jointed thing as shown in Alf's pic (no offense intended Alf)
None taken; hadn't a clue what you were talking about until I realised it was in Jacob's (blocked) post. The old Moore & Wright? Not a thing of aesthetic beauty, but an object lesson in getting the maximum amount of tool storage in the smallest space.
 
Jimi - you said:

I am also looking at the idea of a "secret" lock. A mechanism that locks all drawers in place but isn't readily obvious and has a cunning mechanism for release. I would prefer this to the traditional framed flipping front with a lock.

I was just browsing through "Modern Cabinet Work" by Wells and Hooper (4th edition, 1924) when I came across this, which might help. It describes a locking mechanism for a multi-drawer cabinet.

A bevelled edge at the back of one drawer (which has a normal drawer lock fitted) controls a metal bar at the back of the cabinet which is lifted up and down when this drawer is pulled in and out. Fitted onto this bar are latches for each of all the other drawers. Probably clearer in the original, but I had to read it several times.

locking1.jpg


locking2.jpg


I hope this helps!
 
Cheers Andy...that looks fun!!!

These sort of things have fascinated me since I were a small boy....secret compartments...cunning locks...all that sort of stuff.

It helps a lot

Cheers mate

Jim
 
jimi43":434f2ip5 said:
Cheers Andy...that looks fun!!!

These sort of things have fascinated me since I were a small boy....secret compartments...cunning locks...all that sort of stuff.

It helps a lot

Cheers mate

Jim
Apparently there's an article on the same in the next issue of F&C (not written by me I hasten to add)...should be interesting - Rob
 
AndyT":2mmkvxzq said:
...... look at museum or collector's display cabinets. Pop into the coins and medals department, and you'll probably find more of interest in the cabinets than in the contents....
Absolutely agree. You can't beat looking at things - and copying, if you find what you want. No point in trying to reinvent the wheel - all the best solutions have been found already.
One posh detail is to make the slips and sides in one piece i.e. start with say 18mm sides and rebate down to 9mm just leaving the slips at 18mm. You could radius the slip to side internal angle whilst you are at it.
Top of slips (and muntins) can be flush with the bottom if the panel is rebated on top (or top and bottom) leaving a tongue to fit the slip slot. Normal flush panel door construction in fact.
 
jimi43":1lpsl0qa said:
...are there more elegant ways of construction? Jim
There are different ways certainly Jim. There follows some images of typical drawers using quadrant style slips.

1. An underside view of a typical slipped drawer construction with bottom partially inserted.
drawer-10-700px-web.jpg


2. Looking down into a front right corner.
drawer-06-700px-web.jpg


3. A low level view into the front left hand corner of a slipped drawer. Note the tenon on the end of the slip to ensure the grooves of the slip and the drawer front line up.
drawer-09-700px-web.jpg


4. Low level view of left rear corner of a drawer showing how the slip is notched at the rear end to fit under the drawer back.
drawer-07-700px-web.jpg


5. Sketch of typical quadrant slip.
Slip-700px-web.jpg


6. Sketch of typical quadrant slipped construction viewed towards the rear right corner of a drawer from the outside.
01DrawerTypical2-700px-web.jpg


7. An under drawer low level overview of a slip fitted to a drawer.
drawer-14-700px-web.jpg


8. A further sketch of the rear end of a quadrant slip and drawer corner showing typical construction. The top edge of the drawer back is normally set a little lower than the drawer sides, and frequently rounded over. This, I was taught, is supposed to allow air trapped at the back as the drawer closes, and therefore become compressed and preventing easy closure, to escape over the back top edge and pass towards the front of the drawer and out of the cabinet. (I'm not fully convinced the reasoning for this 'premium' configuration taught to me always hold water, because surely it depends on the configuration of the cabinet and the configuration of the runners and kickers, ie, where else could trapped air escape to?)
RearDovetailHand-700px-web.jpg


A better quality slip form?

The sketches below are for an alternative flush style slip-- this is where the top face of the drawer bottom sits flush with the top edge of the slip. Many consider this to be superior because of the flush appearance on the inside of the drawer, but you do lose a little storage space because of the thicker drawer bottom required. Unfortunately, I don't have an example to hand to photograph, and I didn't photograph the construction of the last drawer I made with this configuration. But hopefully you'll be able to get the general idea from these sketches.

A. With the flush slip the drawer bottom is thicker. With the quadrant slip illustrated above you would use, for eaxmple, a 6 mm thick bottom, in this case you'd use a bottom about 12 mm thick. A tongue is worked on the bottom face of the drawer bottom at either end where they fit into the slip grooves. At the front edge, the tongue is worked into the top face of the drawer bottom, and this tongue fit into the groove worked into the back face of the drawer front. The idea here is that if there's any shrinkage in the width (front to back) of a solid wood bottom it doesn't show as a gap (when viewed from the inside) on the back face of the drawer front.
AltSlipFit-700px-web.jpg


B. Finally, here is a sketch of the rear view of a drawer constructed to set the top face of the drawer bottom flush with the top edge of the slip. The little bead and quirk detail on the top inside corner of the slip is just one decorative option to disguise the intersection between slip and drawer bottom. Slainte.
DrawerSlipAlternative-700px-web.jpg
 
Spot on. I like the bead detail. You could repeat that on a muntin if you had one.
 
jimi43":kzvmgev5 said:
Now if I could just get this chisel sharp..... Jim
Easy. Just slop the damn thing up and down the length of a bench stone a few times-- don't forget to work the back face a bit on the stone, and strop the newly sharpened bit on the palm of your hand, ha, ha. Slainte.
 
Sgian Dubh":2ciw7jh0 said:
jimi43":2ciw7jh0 said:
Now if I could just get this chisel sharp..... Jim
Easy. Just slop the damn thing up and down the length of a bench stone a few times-- don't forget to work the back face a bit on the stone, and strop the newly sharpened bit on the palm of your hand, ha, ha. Slainte.


What! No jig! I paid good money for those jigs...now I can do it freehand thanks to Jacob and now look what's happened....wasted all that money! I just knew it would lead to no good!

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Jim
 
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