Tools for Dovetails

[lurker]

Wizer

Please stop slagging Jacob off because you don't agree with him. People who don't share your views are not automatically trolls.
I think he talks a lot of sense (until he starts on about bluddy chisel sharpening :roll and deserves as much (if not more) respect as I would expect you to be given

AND you have me wrong matey - I'm the biggest tackle tart going.
eg six good back saws including the quite brilliant Vertitas ones + a Gramercey kit order in progress.

I must admit I don't see the point of new chisels as there are so many good marples out there & they are a doddle to fix (Tom I bet I have close to 50 chisels :roll: ) but if you want them fine - I understand.
Just don't insist their "quality " is essential

The point still remains whatever you buy you need the expertise to use & maintain it

Tony Spear - I think I could like you :lol:
My hobbies are woodwork, fly fishing, just returned to photography (spent £500 last week - see wizer! ) & my series 2 ( I don't like your idea of bastardising them though)

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

How I do it on the end grain of a board is to put the saw on the far edge and draw it back, and lower to horizontal, to make a neat starter kerf alongside the line. Isn't that how everybody does it?
More difficult to start a cut forwards as until the kerf is started the saw can skip sideways, and similarly difficult to start backwards if it isn't sharp.
Does that make sense?

OK Jacob, I'm with you.

That is not how I do it. I did used to so I undersand the issues involved. I will say bluntly that there is a better technique than that, and that the difference will astound you.

This is what you do (exaggerated) ..

It is the method favoured among teachers such as Rob Cosman. Look at any of his videos and you will see that he starts the kerf at the far end, then levels the saw across the endgrain. This is more difficult than it seems - when I used this method I inevitably wanted to draw the saw back (as you describe) just to get the kerf started. Personally, it is not a technique I would teach anyone, although RC has done so quite successfully.

Here's the technical side to this situation - skip to the next paragraph if you wish. Most dovetail saws come with a high tooth rake angle which, along with the rip filing, makes the saw difficult to start. You can improve this by reducing the rake angle of the teeth, adding fleam, or both. The trouble is that this slows down the cutting action.

An alternative is to start the saw cut at the near side of the board. This will force you to saw uphill rather than downhill....

When you do this, you reduce the effective rake angle of the teeth. This makes the saw considerably easier to start. You no longer need to pull the saw back, but can start by pushing forward.

This method has two other advantages: firstly, you can see and saw to two adjacent lines, which increases sawing accuracy. Secondly, the act of pulling a saw back actually is more likely to cause the teeth to lose the kerf than create a kerf.

More details here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReview ... ilSaw.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[pedder]

[How I do it on the end grain of a board is to put the saw on the far edge and draw it back, and lower to horizontal, to make a neat starter kerf alongside the line. Isn't that how everybody does it?
More difficult to start a cut forwards as until the kerf is started the saw can skip sideways, and similarly difficult to start backwards if it isn't sharp.
Does that make sense?
Ditto across the grain come to think - though the backwards starter kerf would just be through the far arris and not necessarily right across.

This is commonly known as a bad technique for rip cuts. A rip cut teeth isn't made to cut on the back stroke. Better to lower the rake on the first two inches.

A crosscut teeth is a different animal it has an edge on the back of the teeth.

Cheers Pedder

 

[mr grimsdale]

... A rip cut teeth isn't made to cut on the back stroke...

They do though, but not very well. That's the whole idea - to gently and accurately pick/scratch out the first bit of kerf (just 1mm deep or less) against the line before doing a fiercer forwards stroke when safely in the kerf.

 

[pedder]

... A rip cut teeth isn't made to cut on the back stroke...

They do though, but not very well. That's the whole idea - to gently and accurately pick/scratch out the first bit of kerf (just 1mm deep or less) against the line before doing a fiercer forwards stroke when safely in the kerf.

The problem with this "technique" is that the saw tends to jump out of the kerf. But surely you can train to avoid this. In my opinion it is easier to learn Rob Cosmans technique (what he teaches not what he shows in his vdeos). Saw forward on the whole kerf with extrem little power.

Cheers

 

[Benchwayze]

just looked in ebay for rob cosman dvd - £27 :shock: add to that costs of saws, markers etc then it has to be cheaper to buy a leigh jig

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Shocking innit?
The price of these handtools.

And you don't get a lot of noise for your money either.


John

 

[mr grimsdale]

... A rip cut teeth isn't made to cut on the back stroke...

They do though, but not very well. That's the whole idea - to gently and accurately pick/scratch out the first bit of kerf (just 1mm deep or less) against the line before doing a fiercer forwards stroke when safely in the kerf.

The problem with this "technique" is that the saw tends to jump out of the kerf. ...

The whole point of this technique is that it doesn't jump out of the kerf - there isn't one to start with anyway, and drawing the saw back is much less jumpy and more controllable than pushing it forwards.

 

[wizer]

can you post some pics of the process please Jacob

 

[jimi43]

Tony Spear - I think I could like you

That's funny...I was thinking EXACTLY the same thing....especially about the Series 2 Rover....a TRUE 4x4! Not sure about the Pentax though! :wink:

ANYWAY...back tto the regular programming...this is highly educational!

Jim

 

[studders]

Please stop slagging Jacob off .................. he talks a lot of sense (until he starts on about bluddy chisel sharpening :roll

Amen to that. :lol:

 

[Tony Spear]

Please stop slagging Jacob off .................. he talks a lot of sense (until he starts on about bluddy chisel sharpening :roll

Amen to that. :lol:

Amen to wot?

Talks a lot of sense or bluddy chisel sharpening?

 

[alex8_en]

i'm in process of practise cutting dt and the only thing i could add is get yourself a good lamp i've found that its much easier to split the line if you can see it :wink:

 

[promhandicam]

When I made my gramercy dovetail saw it came with a booklet which included tips on how to use the saw. it is available to download here They suggest to start the cut putting the toe flat on the piece of timber to be cut and using no downward pressure push straight forward. This might not work with the veritas or other coarser saws but with a bit of practice it work fine with the 19tpi gramercy. I think that the problem generally with handsaws - particularly using sharp saws - is that people tend to try too hard and not let the saw do the work.

Steve

 

[promhandicam]

i'm in process of practise cutting dt and the only thing i could add is get yourself a good lamp i've found that its much easier to split the line if you can see it :wink:

I agree that having a good light is helpful but when you say that it makes it easier to 'split the line' I think that your technique is wrong as you should be cutting just on the waste side of the line and not on it.

Steve

 

[promhandicam]

I just find it utterly boring that he yarns on about it like . . . .

someone constantly slagging off rutlands / dakota ? :wink:

Steve

 

[wizer]

i think you could have thought of a better one than that Steve. How about "..like someone who yarns on about his health..." ? :wink:

 

[alex8_en]

hi steve i first tried to cut on waste side but i ended up with well formed cuts but too tight so i had to pare them with chisel so now i'm trying to split the line - any other tips? maybe try to mark with pencil instead with knife?

 

[mr grimsdale]

hi steve i first tried to cut on waste side but i ended up with well formed cuts but too tight so i had to pare them with chisel so now i'm trying to split the line - any other tips? maybe try to mark with pencil instead with knife?

Once you've got a sensible procedure, pencil, knife, whatever, it's all down to practice - and looking closely at exactly what you are doing and why it's going right or wrong. The more you do the better you get.

 

[promhandicam]

hi steve i first tried to cut on waste side but i ended up with well formed cuts but too tight so i had to pare them with chisel so now i'm trying to split the line - any other tips? maybe try to mark with pencil instead with knife?

At the end of the day if you are happy with them what does it matter which side of the line you are cutting? The important thing is the end result - how you get there is really up to you.

 

[studders]

Please stop slagging Jacob off .................. he talks a lot of sense (until he starts on about bluddy chisel sharpening :roll

Amen to that. :lol:

Amen to wot?

Talks a lot of sense or bluddy chisel sharpening?

Sharpening Ol' Boy. Talks sense much of the time otherwise. :lol: