Taking my business forward. How and do I need to rethink?

[petermillard]

Yes, good thread - Kudos to Flanajb for posting. l'll just add that whilst I broadly agree with a lot of what’s been said above, I do like the the look of the products (though, as always, everyone's a critic, myself included) and I think they’re well priced for hand-made items.

Fundamental question though; are you an artisan making one-off exclusives (a slightly tough trick to pull off when there's a mould involved - custom colours may help) and selling direct, or are a small business supplying retail outlets in greater volume - assuming the volume can be met? These two options would need rather different approaches.

Lots to think about - good luck with it all, and keep us posted.

 

[Rhossydd]

.... the word plagiarist starts being bantered about.

Only by you though!
It must be something that concerns you or you wouldn't have mentioned it.

As I've read it, the concern is not that you've copied someone else's work. The worry is that by being so similar to a fashionable item that's been on sale for a long time, much of your market has already been captured.

 

[flanajb]

Fundamental question though; are you an artisan making one-off exclusives (a slightly tough trick to pull off when there's a mould involved - custom colours may help) and selling direct, or are a small business supplying retail outlets in greater volume - assuming the volume can be met? These two options would need rather different approaches.

As you have already sussed. One offs would be significantly more. If you have to make a rubber mold, your firstly need to create a perfect master item to use for the molding of the rubber. This really adds considerable time to a project.

Custom colors is a possible option, but my initial trials with using dyes has been one of frustration and too many throw away rejects.

 

[flanajb]

.... the word plagiarist starts being bantered about.

Only by you though!

Really? Just because it's not posted in public does not mean it has not been mentioned.

 

[Zeddedhed]

Flanajb, my two cents worth.

I think the designs are great. The fact that they are based on similar items is irrelevant in my view. You've made them your own.
Probably agree with the others that the website needs a lick of professionalism, both on the general design and photography side.
I think the pricing sounds reasonable.
I REALLY would love to see you succeed with these.

BUT

I think it'll be extremely difficult to achieve your stated goals in the time frame. Interior designers, magazines, - all that stuff has been mentioned and is probably the right way to go but it's going to be a VERY slow build until it starts to make you anything like sensible money. I'd try them out on Etsy rather than Not On the High Street - much cheaper and you get more of the money.

Best of luck.

 

[Duncan A]

From someone who has zero design and business credentials....
I like your products and think they would sell at designer prices with the correct marketing, as pointed out in such helpful detail by many others on the forum. Your lamp in particular I find far nicer than the Elle model (which looked to me like an Ikea self assembly item) and I really don't think that anyone was hinting at plagiarism - after all, pretty well all desk lamps are similar due to providing similar functions. FWIW I think the twisted cord is too old fashioned for such a contemporary piece, but it must be said that my style sense has never been positively remarked upon!

If you do decide to go ahead, your first priority must be to cover the bills at home or you will never be able to give your all to the business whilst worrying about feeding the children/wife/yourself. If this means contract IT work whilst building up the business, so be it; at least you will be keeping your options open and may even come across some useful contacts as you move around from job to job.

Regardless, good luck with whatever you choose to do, and don't forget to give yourself credit for having got this far - it is no mean feat.

Duncan

 

[doctor Bob]

Here's how I see it.
The market is very small and there are quite a few companies already established

http://www.clocroc.com/index_en.html

I think you are chasing a limited market, I think it's possible to do with some clever marketing but this will cost. I'd work on getting a job at present.

Good luck, remember 4 months will fly past.

 

[flanajb]

Here's how I see it.
The market is very small and there are quite a few companies already established

http://www.clocroc.com/index_en.html

I think you are chasing a limited market, I think it's possible to do with some clever marketing but this will cost. I'd work on getting a job at present.

Good luck, remember 4 months will fly past.

I have seen the clocks being made by clocroc. Clever and cheaper and they must have a cnc router to hand to cut the vinyl faces. Looking at their product I now ask myself "89 euros for their offering or £175 for mine?" 89 euros works if I pay someone £10 - £15 / hour to make them for me. That is the issue with a lot of this. If you like working for peanuts then you are fine, otherwise, choose a white collar occupation. Sad that seems to be the way.

 

[doctor Bob]

I have seen the clocks being made by clocroc. Clever and cheaper and they must have a cnc router to hand to cut the vinyl faces. Looking at their product I now ask myself "89 euros for their offering or £175 for mine?" 89 euros works if I pay someone £10 - £15 / hour to make them for me. That is the issue with a lot of this. If you like working for peanuts then you are fine, otherwise, choose a white collar occupation. Sad that seems to be the way.

The wealthiest people I know started on the shop floor working for peanuts.

 

[Lons]

my price is based on the hours and I mean hours spent over the last 2 years formulating a process for making the lamps and clocks.
I probably sound like I am getting frustrated in trying to justify why they are priced at the cost they are, but is the work I have put in to date not factored in?

Is a $10 pair of jeans from Primark really 1/8th of the quality of Levis. It's all in the branding and I am following that same principle.

I can see why you need to build in your development costs from the beginning and your example of the difference between a $100 v £1000 item being in how it's marketed...however, you are not in that position and if you're selling none and you won't if the pricing is wrong or the product not in the right market place then you won't recoup the development costs anyway. Certainly not a chance over your time scale.

The jeans, I don't see as a good example and there is a very real difference in quality between jeans from Primark and Levis apart from which they are targetted at different market groups entirely. I bought Primark jeans long ago for work and they weren't even fit for that! I think if you look at Levi and Wrangler they started from humble beginnings and built a reputation later reinforced by clever, aggressive and expensive marketing. ( I won't pay retail for Levis btw just wait for offers or a visit to the US :lol: )

Doc Bob has it exactly when he says

The wealthiest people I know started on the shop floor working for peanuts.

James Dyson and Alan Sugar didn't succeed without getting off their backsides and pushing their products under the noses of everyone they thought could help them. I can't remember how many times Richard Branson failed before he made it. One thing they all had and still have is the energy, commitment and belief to make it happen but they also did their research.

I'm trying not to be too critical flanajb and like others applaud you for sticking your neck out, you clearly want it to happen and I sincerely hope you can it's just at the minute I think you should cover the bases and make sure your family comes first which means ensuring the bills are paid. Assuming you have a stable family you're going to need their 100% support.

Just my humble opinion though.
regards
Bob

 

[YorkshireMartin]

I love your products, I think they are cool and I can see them being featured in magazines, but I'd find another way to support yourself whilst developing certain key areas of your business and you may well do ok.

The photos are letting you down in my opinion. The lighting is flat, white background isolation is inappropriate as the sole illustration for a design centric product of this type, there is little context. They lack general quality. I'd hazard a guess they were taken with either a bridge camera or a low end DSLR with a kit lens. Product photography, especially for this type of product, is a task for a good pro product photographer in a studio. It's a specialist discipline of photography. Look at some interior design magazines or swiss watch adverts (Ulysee Nardin, IWC and so on) to see how they could look. Boutique product, boutique images.

The web site is a little bit amateurish and is definitely something I'd be looking to improve upon, because if you're USP is design, an amazingly beautiful web site is a must. They don't come cheap.

I have an issue with the use of *concrete* in a wall clock that costs £175, not sure why. I know a lot of effort goes into making these. Any chance of making them from a custom material to differentiate? Concrete can look amazing, but if the clock came up in conversation, perhaps people wouldn't immediately think it was a must have item, if you see what I mean? If you asked someone where they would buy a concrete wall clock, I'd imagine the most common response would be a garden centre. For that reason marketing might be more of an uphill battle than it could be with a few tweaks.

I think you're on to something, I really do, it just needs refinement and time.

Best of luck, it's a great idea.

 

[Mr_P]

Its been mentioned before but I'll mention it again after new info has been provided by the maker about the lamps.

Text,
Just had a quick look at the website and can find no mention of Made in the UK, 2 years of development finding the perfect mixture, you make your own moulds. Many folk will glance at your website and assume you are just an importer.

Regarding development costs, it might be better to bite the bullet and write them off or try and recoup them over a much longer period of time.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

" ... there is a very real difference in quality between jeans from Primark and Levis ..." - Bob

It shouldn't be an automatic supposition that because you pay a lot, the quality is better - I buy jeans from a cheap outlet for £15 for two pairs - they are way better made than the Levis 501s I was paying £50 a pair for thirty years ago.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I've only just caught up with this thread - fascinating in its entirety.

Flanjab, you deserve a lot of credit for doing this - it's brave to put your heart on your sleeve and it's great to read all the comments. I haven't pored over every post, but it certainly seems like everyone's trying to contribute in a positive way -- even if it's stuff one doesn't really want to hear!

I've tried to do small business myself in the past, but given up on the basis that I didn't have the energy for it (this turned out to have a medical reason, but that's an excuse!). It is really tough and all the advice given about perseverence, tenacity and becoming an expert at everything I'd echo. There are plenty of professionals who'll take your money for advice, and so on, but who aren't taking your risks and don't have your imperatives (such as your mortgage and family to support), and you simply have to DIY a lot of the business stuff as it's not cost-effective to pay someone else, at least in the early stages.

There's an old saying:"In a goldrush, be the person selling the shovels." And it's true: they're the people who make the bulk of the money, because they meet a pressing need at the minimum risk for the greatest return. They were the bussiness analysts and accountants and business 'angels' of the Klondike.

Practical thing: the web site. Others have said it needs text. That's partially true. It needs search engine optimization (SEO), and good text is part of that.

Whatever you do with the products, no matter how you sell them and to or through whom, that site needs to SELL for you. There are fundamentals in this:

1. It must have good, ongoing SEO. If people can't find the site they can't find you. Few users of Google search bother with any more than the second results page. Most only use the first five links Google throws at them. Being on page three is an exercise in futility, no matter how interesting the products are. More on SEO below...

2. It must have all your business details, not just for legality but to appear professional. People want to do business with you in the way they want to, which might be by phone or even letter/fax or visit, and commercial customers expect an established business (few will take a risk on something coming out of a garage, no matter how good the products).

3. SEO does two things: it lets you get found on the Web, and it pushes your web presence towards the market(s) you want to target. Both are necessary. But it's founded on solid product marketing beforehand. That means understanding the customer's needs/wants/preferences, and meeting them.

So what makes your concrete products so desirable? Why would someone want them over, say, a desk lamp or a clock from Ikea? "They're better than XXX because..." can be answered in a number of ways, including "My stuff is rare and special."

The thing is, you have to decide what aspects of the product you want to push (and 'aspects' of you and your business too!). Those are the things you should be talking about on your site. If your business is designer/bespoke, people probably want to know as much about you as about the products - they're paying a premium to buy into your values, to own a Flanjab lamp (or clock or whatever), rather than just people who like what you do.

They might be trying to furnish a house entirely in concrete products and thus have found you, or they might be looking for an interesting desk lamp or a clock. If you think the latter is more likely (personally, I do!), then that's how you angle your web site.

It's been mentioned earlier: Google gives a lot of help to webmasters wanting to SEO their sites. I heartily recommend both their Webmaster Tools and Google Analytics, but take time also to read their suggestions. SEO is not complicated and there are no "black arts" to practice - just make the text concise and compelling, accurate and relevant.

Make your site meta information agree with the site's content (don't put irrelevant or too-broad keywords in, hoping to cast your net wider), make the image names agree with their content too. Also put your business details into Google Places (or its current equivalent), get a Facebook page for the business and products, put yourself on LinkedIn as the business owner and/or a concrete designer, and consider a carefully planned advertising/promotion campaign to get your products seen by the right people (journalists and style gurus, commercial buyers and retail customers).

Have a look at Drew Pritchard's web site, to see something that's really well focused on a well-understood demographic. It's the main sales tool for his business, and done very well. You don't have to like (or dislike) it, the point is how it works as a sales tool.

In particular look at his Salford Racking products, which the company actually manufactures new. Consider the photography, the amount of text, what aspects of the product and company and product it's talking about, the page layout, and even the font he uses.

There's one absolutely key thing (and it's a big factor in what's made him successful): It's not "Old Reclaimed Stuff", it's "Drew Pritchard", i.e. personal. In large part, he's selling himself!

Note also that there's no mucking about: you get what you want in the right order - products to browse, then buying details and company information. I see you do that too, which is good.

Whatever you think of the man (personally, I find him hard to dislike), I'd guess there's a big overlap between his target market and yours. Is imitation the sincerest form of flattery?

E.

 

[AJB Temple]

To add a tangent on pricing. There is a shop in Camden (London) selling desk lamps with concrete bases, bent beechwood arms and a shade, LED spotlight fitted and a red flex. They are £32 in the sale, reduced from £55. I would post a picture here but they made a fuss when I tried to take a snap on my phone. The bases are available in off white, grey and black and it looks as if they have been polished as some aggregate shows through. They are made in London apparently by a guy who also moulds concrete garden furniture, statuary and so on.

Incorporating your development costs, learning time and costs of failures into your current pricing is not a good idea. This is a sunk cost and you have to wave goodbye to it: treat it as a learning experience. Your price is determined by value perceived by your customers, and that depends on who they are and how you market to them. It may be a good idea to develop another product which is not so similar to work developed by others, as you will then more easily be seen as unique rather than a copyist / developer.

You could develop some cash flow products at much lower price points - for example desk top furniture (pen holders, phone stand, whatever). Or kitchen knife blocks with a concrete base.

There will be no volume market as anything you can mould someone else with more resources can mould cheaper. So creative design and more artisan products may serve you best. The references to brand are important - and at the moment you don't have one. We are on page 5 of this thread and I have commented a couple of times and can't be sure that I remember the name on your website. If pushed I would say it was concrete laboratories. You need to find something memorable.

Find some shops that sell high end design at premium prices. I am a bug fan of Manufactum (now available on-line in the UK), who have a simply fantastic shop in Cologne and elsewhere. They sell everything at premium prices and are always looking for things that are "different" and ultra high quality. Seek out such retailers: they don't necessarily need to be in the UK.

 

[Wizard9999]

.... the word plagiarist starts being bantered about.

Only by you though!

Really? Just because it's not posted in public does not mean it has not been mentioned.

Flanajb

If it is my post that raises this thought in your mind then I am sorry it has had that result. As I think I said elsewhere in the thread I very much admire your efforts. I agree with your comments that there is little very new in the world, I recall hearing reports of cases taken to court about songs where one composer claims ownership over a particular combination of notes which I find a bit odd. I still like the comment made by an old teacher of mine many, many years ago, he said "copying from one source is plagiarism, copying from more than one source is research" (I am sure it was not his original thought, but don't know who said it first). The vast majority of 'new' products are inevitably an evolution of previous products, consciously or sub-consciously drawing on other products. If you had simply bought one of the other lamps, disassembled it and then ruthlessly replicated it then I would find that problematic but that is not what you have done. My point was (as has already been said) that with the other lamp out there the market may not be what it would have been without it.

Terry.

 

[flanajb]

If it is my post that raises this thought in your mind then I am sorry it has had that result. As I think I said elsewhere in the thread I very much admire your efforts. I agree with your comments that there is little very new in the world, I recall hearing reports of cases taken to court about songs where one composer claims ownership over a particular combination of notes which I find a bit odd. I still like the comment made by an old teacher of mine many, many years ago, he said "copying from one source is plagiarism, copying from more than one source is research" (I am sure it was not his original thought, but don't know who said it first). The vast majority of 'new' products are inevitably an evolution of previous products, consciously or sub-consciously drawing on other products. If you had simply bought one of the other lamps, disassembled it and then ruthlessly replicated it then I would find that problematic but that is not what you have done. My point was (as has already been said) that with the other lamp out there the market may not be what it would have been without it.

Terry.

Terry, Apologies if I insinuated it was you, but it was a pm I received.

I keep reading all of these posts and really appreciate the time and effort people have put into their responses. It has been an eye opener for me and whilst I have found some of it very disheartening to read, it has been a wake up call that the business is not a viable income generator. Especially, considering my monthly outgoings. At the moment all of the items I have made (pretty 2-3 of each product) have been made in my garage. If I then factor in the expense of renting a workshop, business insurance ... the whole model becomes even worse from a revenue generation perspective. Having my own business has always been a dream of mine, but I think I need to remove my rose tinted spectacles and realise that in reality it can be one big ball ache and I am not sure that is the road I want to venture down.

I have read many times, that people who earn a living in furniture making related occupations don't do it for the money, but for the love of making stuff. My motivation was/is to make ££ and be free from the corporate monotony and be in control of my own destiny. I now feel that there are simpler ways of achieving this, without having to venture down a concrete manufacturing business.

Thanks again.

 

[flanajb]

There's an old saying:"In a goldrush, be the person selling the shovels." And it's true: they're the people who make the bulk of the money, because they meet a pressing need at the minimum risk for the greatest return. They were the bussiness analysts and accountants and business 'angels' of the Klondike.

I like that saying. One that I could learn a lot from!

 

[Wizard9999]

There's an old saying:"In a goldrush, be the person selling the shovels." And it's true: they're the people who make the bulk of the money, because they meet a pressing need at the minimum risk for the greatest return. They were the bussiness analysts and accountants and business 'angels' of the Klondike.

I like that saying. One that I could learn a lot from!

Flanajb

There may be something in this for you. You mentioned in one of your posts that some of the inspiration for this was the use of concrete technology more usual in the US and Australia, you used an acronym I was not familiar with but I assumed it was glass fibre reinforced concrete. I drew this conclusion based on havinf watched an episode of Grand Designs Australia where large panels of this were used in the construction, so maybe I am wrong. There have been many examples of people transferring an idea from one country to another and making a chunk of money, the most notable route being from the US to the UK. If you have invested the time to get to grips with how you can use a superior technology / product in a application where it has not been used before then maybe that is the USP you need to make a successful business, rather than looking at the product design.

You mentioned products for architects before and maybe there is something in this. Concrete is a popular product in many areas these days and if you are able to produce items with superior strength for example then maybe you can produce one-off bespoke items that need this extra strength? Instead of selling directly to end consumers your target market would be specifiers and architects. If you read magazines like Living Etc. for example you will often find homes where a clever designer has taken off the shelf kitchen carcasses / cabinets as a the base for a kitchen but used high end handles, worktops, etc. to given a much higher end look (I mention Living Etc. rather than some of the more high end magazines as they often feature aspiration all types who want the full look but can't afford to go to a top end provider for every aspect).

Anyway, sure you get the idea, but thought it worth mentioning.

Terry.

 

[CHJ]

[I keep reading all of these posts and really appreciate the time and effort people have put into their responses. It has been an eye opener for me and whilst I have found some of it very disheartening to read, it has been a wake up call that the business is not a viable income generator. Especially, considering my monthly outgoings. At the moment all of the items I have made (pretty 2-3 of each product) have been made in my garage. If I then factor in the expense of renting a workshop, business insurance ... the whole model becomes even worse from a revenue generation perspective. Having my own business has always been a dream of mine, but I think I need to remove my rose tinted spectacles and realise that in reality it can be one big ball ache and I am not sure that is the road I want to venture down.
..

One aspect you may not have factored into the equation of self employed viability with enough background information/knowledge is the financial accounting and tax, (both liabilities and allowances) I would suggest before you get too disheartened you seek some advice on this score and set yourself a timescale to research the 'Business' aspects in depth rather than the product production.

As a self employed individual with a good accountant advising what is legal on your profits and loss accounts it is not unknown to have a reasonable income and virtually no personal tax liability.

A good accountant can save you many hours of heartache and 10 X + their fees in lost income.

Will you be operating totally 'on your own' or will your wife/partner/sibling be there to take on the 'office' duties whilst you concentrate on production? invariably self employment becomes a 24/7 commitment for the whole family, keeping the 'value added' within the family helps considerably in efficiency and moral support.

Personally I would say whatever you do, do not factor your family home into the financing of your enterprise.